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[Dillo-dev]Re: Upcoming review.
by Gavin Henry Feb. 25, 2004

Feb. 25, 2004

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - ---------- Original Message ----------- From: Jorge Arellano Cid <jcid(a)dillo.org> To: Gavin Henry <ghenry(a)fedoranews.org> Cc: Dillo mailing list <dillo-dev(a)auriga.wearlab.de> Sent: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:22:38 -0300 (CLST) Subject: Re: Upcoming review. > [list: this was originally a personal answer to Gavin, but as it > has general interest information I'm CC to dillo-dev. > It's about a browser comparison article. ] > > Gavin, > > > [...] > > Thanks, I saw a few of these. I will check out the wording etc. Mine might > > not be so in depth, more of a general features thing. But there will be > > figures ie load times etc. which I am sure yours will win. > > :) > > > Know of any monster sites, that would be a good benchmark for the browsers. I > > have ADSL, so banwidth shouldn't be an issue. > > There're some interesting tests to be done. Which one you > choose depends on the time you have, and on what you want to test > for. > > For instance, IMHO, the common "web experience" has four > important factors: So far I have tested the browsers on slashdot, and bbc.co.uk and a few others. They all seem to wait until some pictures arrive until rendering anything. I haven't time these yet. Dillo, displays text immediately, but has some difficulty with CSS. For instance fedoranews.org looks bad :-) Are you familiar with http://wwww.udcast.com/ whcih runs freebsd and has customised apache etc. I thought maybe you have done something like this. As my day job www.invsat.com we had a demo from them and they explained the priciple of http precaching. Instead of requesting 4 images then waiting, it requests all images at once, as this then reduces the latency across a satellite link. Is this how your browser works? (*I haven't look at any code as of yet ;-) ) > > * Network wait time > > * Rendering wait time > > * Time to start seeing content > - streamed rendering > > * Site usability These will be what I base the benchmarks on. > > These are key factors; for instance the same site may be > unusable depending on whether you're on a dialup or broad band. > The same is true for rendering time (influenced by CPU power and > available memory); you may end going to some site only when > you're sitting at a powerful workstation. I don't have access to dial-up, but I have a celeron 400 and a athlon xp 2000 to test on. > > The time to start seeing content is also important. If it takes > too long, it may exceed the user's patience (there're studies > about this). For instance, if a browser needs the whole table > to start rendering, some table-based sites will be exceedingly > annoying to visit (unless your band-width can mitigate this). Dillo is very fast on this. > > The site usability is another key factor. For instance if it's > designed for a certain browser, it may be impossible to use with > another. Alot seem broken. I will properly read the review site you posted so I can see what result they found. > Now, getting back to the test suggestions you asked, these > points can be isolated. > > * Network wait time: > > Get to a site with multiple images, ideally with some coming > from other sites. I'm sure you will find a better example for > an english speaking audience, but this link illustrates the idea: > > http://www.lun.com/_portada/contenido.asp Alot of pics n this one ;) > > * Rendering wait time > > Very simple, load a semi complex page (like slashdot with > comments --a 500KB one), or a large one (as the mysql manual -- I > have one which is more than two Megabytes long). > > Press back, the forward. (you can have some coffee :) Slashdot works perfect. What do you define as a compliant site? All done in CSS? no java script or flash? xhtml or html? Oops, meant for usability section. > > * Time to start seeing content > - streamed rendering > > Get to a table-based semi complex page (300Kb-600Kb) and > measure the time between asking for the URL and when you can > start reading. > > * Site usability > > Well, this depends on whether the page respects standards, how > broken the site implementation is, the browser's support for > the technologies involved, user preferences (javascript may be > disabled, same for cookies, a JVM may not be present, same for > flash, etc). Got it. > > -- > > Now that's for having some numbers to show inside a table for > people with above the average knowledge about browsers :-) > > (very interesting, but not massive). Nope, but very interesting. I will need a quick hand on the stop watch :-) > > Simple usability experience can be explained to less technical > people: > > For instance, take dillo, and dig for something using google. > You'll find that the time you use to make different queries and > to check for alternative links until you find what you look for > is better than with almost anything you've used before. Noticed that. > > The same is true for browsing local documentation (all of those > html files under the /usr/doc or /usr/share/doc directories). > This happens because the combined rendering speed and low > download time (a filesystem) let you move very quickly, back and > forward, make text searches inside the pages, go to another link, > saving you lots of time. Agreed. > > Going with dillo to any web site is different, if it respects > standards (ans so renders OK) its great, but if not, you'll have > to resort to a bigger browser. Agreed. :-( > > The other important points to consider is to test with > different band widths and CPU power. You'll barely notice how > fast dillo is on a 2.2 Ghz machine, and if you only test on broad > band you'll never know that it's possible to have a good browsing > experience with a simple dialup. > > That's it. > > Cheers > Jorge.- - ------- End of Original Message ------- Thanks Jorge, I really appreciate your time and expertise. I think these will be used as the basis for browser benchmarks, stealling the reasoning you gave for the introductions :-) I will give you a preview of it as it starts to resemble something readable. Thanks again. P.S> I posted this to the list from my company account too. - -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Director. Open Source. Open Solutions. http://www.suretecsystems.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAO9X0eWseh9tzvqgRAr/uAJ9piEKRTm8E6Ndqi71Oaecg4kcL9gCfYdma x2S++i7TSEVnL4W8Fmu6J9k= =cwPk -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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[Dillo-dev]CVS password
by Jeremy Henty Feb. 24, 2004

Feb. 24, 2004

Hello people, I just tried to download from CVS as per the instructions on your CVS page and I'm getting kicked out. I have tried guessing passwords (my email, "guest", "anonymous") but nothing works. What am I doing wrong? (I am running CVS 1.11.11 on Linux 2.4.25 .) $ cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@auriga.wearlab.de:/sfhome/cvs/dillo login Logging in to :pserver:anonymous@auriga.wearlab.de:2401/sfhome/cvs/dillo CVS password: cvs login: authorization failed: server auriga.wearlab.de rejected access to /sfhome/cvs/dillo for user anonymous Cheers, Jeremy

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[Dillo-dev]Re: Upcoming review.
by Jorge Arellano Cid Feb. 24, 2004

Feb. 24, 2004

[list: this was originally a personal answer to Gavin, but as it has general interest information I'm CC to dillo-dev. It's about a browser comparison article. ] Gavin, > [...] > Thanks, I saw a few of these. I will check out the wording etc. Mine might > not be so in depth, more of a general features thing. But there will be > figures ie load times etc. which I am sure yours will win. :) > Know of any monster sites, that would be a good benchmark for the browsers. I > have ADSL, so banwidth shouldn't be an issue. There're some interesting tests to be done. Which one you choose depends on the time you have, and on what you want to test for. For instance, IMHO, the common "web experience" has four important factors: * Network wait time * Rendering wait time * Time to start seeing content - streamed rendering * Site usability These are key factors; for instance the same site may be unusable depending on whether you're on a dialup or broad band. The same is true for rendering time (influenced by CPU power and available memory); you may end going to some site only when you're sitting at a powerful workstation. The time to start seeing content is also important. If it takes too long, it may exceed the user's patience (there're studies about this). For instance, if a browser needs the whole table to start rendering, some table-based sites will be exceedingly annoying to visit (unless your band-width can mitigate this). The site usability is another key factor. For instance if it's designed for a certain browser, it may be impossible to use with another. Now, getting back to the test suggestions you asked, these points can be isolated. * Network wait time: Get to a site with multiple images, ideally with some coming from other sites. I'm sure you will find a better example for an english speaking audience, but this link illustrates the idea: http://www.lun.com/_portada/contenido.asp * Rendering wait time Very simple, load a semi complex page (like slashdot with comments --a 500KB one), or a large one (as the mysql manual -- I have one which is more than two Megabytes long). Press back, the forward. (you can have some coffee :) * Time to start seeing content - streamed rendering Get to a table-based semi complex page (300Kb-600Kb) and measure the time between asking for the URL and when you can start reading. * Site usability Well, this depends on whether the page respects standards, how broken the site implementation is, the browser's support for the technologies involved, user preferences (javascript may be disabled, same for cookies, a JVM may not be present, same for flash, etc). -- Now that's for having some numbers to show inside a table for people with above the average knowledge about browsers :-) (very interesting, but not massive). Simple usability experience can be explained to less technical people: For instance, take dillo, and dig for something using google. You'll find that the time you use to make different queries and to check for alternative links until you find what you look for is better than with almost anything you've used before. The same is true for browsing local documentation (all of those html files under the /usr/doc or /usr/share/doc directories). This happens because the combined rendering speed and low download time (a filesystem) let you move very quickly, back and forward, make text searches inside the pages, go to another link, saving you lots of time. Going with dillo to any web site is different, if it respects standards (ans so renders OK) its great, but if not, you'll have to resort to a bigger browser. The other important points to consider is to test with different band widths and CPU power. You'll barely notice how fast dillo is on a 2.2 Ghz machine, and if you only test on broad band you'll never know that it's possible to have a good browsing experience with a simple dialup. That's it. Cheers Jorge.-

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Re: [Dillo-dev]Frame support in CVS
by Kelson Vibber Feb. 23, 2004

Feb. 23, 2004

On Saturday 21 February 2004 5:19 am, Andreas Kemnade wrote: > I have tried to update Frank's patch. It is not well tested or cleaned > up yet but I simply need to take a deep breath. Thanks! I tried to do that a week or so ago, but didn't get far enough for it to be useful. The patch you posted works so far here (minus obvious things like the incomplete splash page). I've posted some test RPMs in the usual spot, if anyone's interested. > The patch has one big problem. It is too big. Not that it bloats dillo, > but it is hard to review such a big patch. Perhaps it can be split up > and then be committed piece by piece. Has anyone ideas how to split it? > Perhaps in the DilloDoc/BrowserWindow separation, the kbnav thing and > frame support? Agreed. My suggestion would be to pare it down to just what's needed for frames and tabs. Rip out the kbnav changes, the splash screen changes, and everything else. Once that's done, maybe separate the pieces further just to make the pieces easier to review. Maybe three chunks: the doc/window split, frames support, and tabs support. > So what's the way to get frames into cvs? I suspect that the smaller and easier-to-review the patch is, the better chance it'll have of getting accepted. (But I'm just an interested end-user and packager, not a core developer, so what do I know?) > I would not like to see Frank's effort lost. Neither would I! -- Kelson Vibber www.hyperborea.org

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[Dillo-dev]Italian help translation
by Andrea Spadaccini Feb. 22, 2004

Feb. 22, 2004

Hi, list! I'm a new user of Dillo, and I found it GREAT! It's handy at home, my PII-400 likes it; at the university is EVEN BETTER (we have PI-133, so you can imagine how sluggish is netscape..). I'm writing to ask if I can translate Dillo help in Italian: is there someone else that is translating in italian? If there isn't, which files should I translate, and where should I send them? Thanks for you great work! -- Andrea Spadaccini -- a.k.a. Lupino / Lupin85 - Catania - -:* Powered by Slackware Linux 9.1 *:-

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[Dillo-dev]0.8.0 issue
by Pete Feb. 22, 2004

Feb. 22, 2004

Greetings all, I certainly hate to complain after all the good work has been done in this new version of Dillo. I wont complain, I will ask a question: When I open Dillo up, if I try to open my bookmarks I get a hard lockup and have to 'xkill' dillo. Anytime I try bookmarks after that, things work just fine. It is only the initial time when I open Dillo that I have this issue. Anyone else have this issue? Running Free BSD 5.1-RC Thanks for the good work! -- Pete http://milneweb.com http://nomorevirus.com

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[Dillo-dev]Resuming...
by Jorge Arellano Cid Feb. 22, 2004

Feb. 22, 2004

Hi there, I'm back from my week off! It was very nice with plenty of good times in the southern part of Chile. A bit short but reassuring! In fact it was a few days ago that I started moving the large stack of emails and pending issues... Those still waiting for an answer, please be patient, just keep sending periodic remainders to the mailing list just in case I get lost in the email pile. ;) (email is kind of an entropic activity: the more you write, the more you receive). One of the already answered was a request from LinuxDevices. Now you can check their coverage of 0.8.0 release here: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS6109819427.html Greetings to everyone Jorge.-

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[Dillo-dev]GTK error
by Riccardo Feb. 22, 2004

Feb. 22, 2004

Hello, dillo 0.8.0 (well, the last pre series I think...) dies from time to time with this error: Gdk-ERROR **: BadMatch (invalid parameter attributes) serial 6737 error_code 8 request_code 72 minor_code 0 this is on solaris, gtk 1.2.10 -Ric

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[Dillo-dev]CSS pre-release
by Sebastian Geerken Feb. 22, 2004

Feb. 22, 2004

Hi! For those interested in the work on CSS, there is a pre-release at <http://www.dillo.org/download/dillo-0.8.0-css-1.tar.gz>. Don't expect too much, it is rather incomplete, even the splash screen cannot be displayed :-) (because of a syntax error in it). It is based on dillo 0.8.0, although much of the functionality in the latter is missing. See the file README for further informations. Sebastian

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[Dillo-dev]Frame support in CVS
by Jacky Lam Feb. 22, 2004

Feb. 22, 2004

Hi, all, I am new to dillo and I want to use dillo with frame support. I try dillo in CVS and find it only show some link pages for each frames respectively. Is it the current status? How about Frank patches? Thanks. Best regards, Jacky

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