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Re: [Dillo-dev]Preparing the 0.8.1 release

by Francis Daly

On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 08:44:45AM -0600, Pete wrote: > On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 12:19:51PM +0100, Francis Daly wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 07:48:11PM -0400, Jorge Arellano Cid wrote: > > > On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Jens Arm wrote: > > > > Directories like > > > > > > > > http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/tools/ > > > > > > > > or others are not rendered correctly > > > > > > Yes. This is a complex problem. > > > > > > Apache (the web server), generates bad HTML for directory > > > listings (at least 1.3.x series): > I may be missing something with this. What I think I am reading is > that this is an Apache issue as far as why the page isnt rendering > well. I am running Thttp for a server. I copied the source and stuck > it on my server. It then will not render well with Dillo either. The fact is that the html is invalid, and therefore renders funny. Saving the html and serving it from another web server, or fetching it from a file, won't change that it is invalid. The reason it is an apache problem is that the html is generated by apache, not that it is served by apache. > I sense I am still missing part of this discussion but thought I would > add my 2 cents anyways. *;o) Does that fill in the missing bit? As it happens, thttpd (2.25b) has a very similar problem, in that its default directory listing, if enabled, looks like === <H2>Index of /</H2> <PRE> mode links bytes last-changed name <HR>dr-x 2 4096 Mar 23 12:23 <A HREF="/./">.</A>/ === which current dillo will also recognise as invalid, and render not as the server author presumably hoped. Cheers, f -- Francis Daly francis(a)daoine.org

April 27, 2004

Re: [Dillo-dev]Preparing the 0.8.1 release

by Pete

On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 12:19:51PM +0100, Francis Daly wrote: > On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 07:48:11PM -0400, Jorge Arellano Cid wrote: > > On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Jens Arm wrote: > > > > > Please test our current CVS hardly, and tell us how it did. > > > > > > Directories like > > > > > > http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/tools/ > > > > > > or others are not rendered correctly > > > > Yes. This is a complex problem. > > > > Apache (the web server), generates bad HTML for directory > > listings (at least 1.3.x series): > > > > <PRE> is an inline container excluding: > > > > {IMG, OBJECT, APPLET, BIG, SMALL, SUB, SUP, FONT, BASEFONT} > > > > Also, it can't hold block elements (e.g. HR). > > > > I may be missing something with this. What I think I am reading is that this is an Apache issue as far as why the page isnt rendering well. I am running Thttp for a server. I copied the source and stuck it on my server. It then will not render well with Dillo either. I sense I am still missing part of this discussion but thought I would add my 2 cents anyways. *;o) -- Pete http://milneweb.com http://nomorevirus.com

April 27, 2004

Re: [Dillo-dev]Preparing the 0.8.1 release

by Francis Daly

On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 07:48:11PM -0400, Jorge Arellano Cid wrote: > On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Jens Arm wrote: > > > Please test our current CVS hardly, and tell us how it did. > > > > Directories like > > > > http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/tools/ > > > > or others are not rendered correctly > > Yes. This is a complex problem. > > Apache (the web server), generates bad HTML for directory > listings (at least 1.3.x series): > > <PRE> is an inline container excluding: > > {IMG, OBJECT, APPLET, BIG, SMALL, SUB, SUP, FONT, BASEFONT} > > Also, it can't hold block elements (e.g. HR). > > > So there's a bug in having <HR> inside <PRE> and one bug per > directory entry because <PRE> can't contain <IMG>. http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=9307 and http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=13351 suggest that the apache developers know, and it's not going to change in the 1.3 series. http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=10880 suggests that the default won't change in the 2.0 series, but there may be IndexOptions settings that the web server administrator can use to make it valid. > Parhaps the 2.x.x Apache series produces XML. Does anyone know? http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.0/mod/mod_autoindex.html#indexoptions says that it can (2.0.49 and later) if the admin configures it that way. (I haven't verified it, though.) > After analizing the produced HTML for directory listings, I > found that isolating the <HR> outside <PRE> is a trivial fix that > helps keeping the block element outside. > > That is: > > - <HR> > + </PRE><HR><PRE> > > Very simple. It would allow for violations of the type "inline > container with excluded inline element within" (instead of > "inline container with a block inside"). > > Does anyone know an apache developer? It seems that sending the > patch through bugzilla could take years to be noticed... It can be a bit hit and miss. If one of the core team is directly interested and not otherwise engaged, they can get things done quickly. Their most recent attempt not to lose patches seems to be described in http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=apache-httpd-dev&m=108012889313136&w=2 which suggests that bugzilla may be being watched closely. > OTOH, I don't like very much breaking our policies with code to > handle bad HTML, and yes I know this is the most used web server. > Maybe a dillorc option to enable a workaround for apache could do > it, but I'd really like to talk with one of the developers. > > Comments? As others have said, any future change to apache won't change current servers for years to come. So rendering it usefully, if not ideally, would be prudent. And a big black mark in the bug meter is in order, too. Correctness vs usefulness... f -- Francis Daly francis(a)daoine.org

April 27, 2004

Re: [Dillo-dev]Preparing the 0.8.1 release

by Riccardo Mottola

Jorge Arellano Cid wrote: > > OTOH, I don't like very much breaking our policies with code to > handle bad HTML, and yes I know this is the most used web server. > Maybe a dillorc option to enable a workaround for apache could do > it, but I'd really like to talk with one of the developers. > > Comments? Yes, I think dillo should render those pages. Even if a new 1.3 version comes out many people won't upgrade immediatly, old evrsions of apache are aorund for a very very long time and I woudl respect this. I think we should have an option like iCab which allows "strict" rendering and then options to make it more and more tolerant. After all we have to use dillo in the real world, not in an ideal one. -R

April 27, 2004

Re: [Dillo-dev]Preparing the 0.8.1 release

by Kelson Vibber

On Monday 26 April 2004 4:48 pm, Jorge Arellano Cid wrote: > OTOH, I don't like very much breaking our policies with code to > handle bad HTML, and yes I know this is the most used web server. > Maybe a dillorc option to enable a workaround for apache could do > it, but I'd really like to talk with one of the developers. No offense, but you have *got* to be kidding about (a) not working around this in some way, (b) expecting a program with an install base orders of magnitude higher than Dillo to change immediately, and (c) actually adding an "unbreak my application" preference. Even if Apache is fixed next week, how long will it take for the millions of sites using it to upgrade? What about all those installations using an OS distribution that keeps using the same old 1.3.10 or whatever, just backporting security patches? I see little harm in working around this bug, but if you prefer not to cater to it, perhaps a compromise would be to discard the invalid HR, rather than end the PRE block early. -- Kelson Vibber www.hyperborea.org

April 27, 2004

[Dillo-dev]what should do after the window is scrolled?

by Lei Jin

After the window is scrolled, should the new contents of the window be redrawed by the code written by human? Can we output the whole contents to a place, then when the window is scrolled, we only need to updated the visible rectangle parameter? --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? 惠普TT游戏剧，玩游戏，中大奖！

April 27, 2004

Re: [Dillo-dev]Preparing the 0.8.1 release

by Jorge Arellano Cid

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Jens Arm wrote: > > Please test our current CVS hardly, and tell us how it did. > > Directories like > > http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/tools/ > > or others are not rendered correctly Yes. This is a complex problem. Apache (the web server), generates bad HTML for directory listings (at least 1.3.x series): <PRE> is an inline container excluding: {IMG, OBJECT, APPLET, BIG, SMALL, SUB, SUP, FONT, BASEFONT} Also, it can't hold block elements (e.g. HR). So there's a bug in having <HR> inside <PRE> and one bug per directory entry because <PRE> can't contain <IMG>. As usual, the problem is not black or white, because producing valid HTML for the directory listing would require tables (if you want to keep the image). Probably, a long time ago, they considered the situation and found that bad HTML using PRE was more portable than one based on TABLE. I don't know for sure. Parhaps the 2.x.x Apache series produces XML. Does anyone know? After analizing the produced HTML for directory listings, I found that isolating the <HR> outside <PRE> is a trivial fix that helps keeping the block element outside. That is: - <HR> + </PRE><HR><PRE> Very simple. It would allow for violations of the type "inline container with excluded inline element within" (instead of "inline container with a block inside"). Does anyone know an apache developer? It seems that sending the patch through bugzilla could take years to be noticed... OTOH, I don't like very much breaking our policies with code to handle bad HTML, and yes I know this is the most used web server. Maybe a dillorc option to enable a workaround for apache could do it, but I'd really like to talk with one of the developers. Comments? Cheers Jorge.- PS: Patching Dillo to render it is trivial. Though it could break other pages...

April 26, 2004

Re: [Dillo-dev]install-dpi-local missing?

by Jorge Arellano Cid

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004, Livio Baldini Soares wrote: > Hello everyone, Oi Livio! > > Long time no see, I know, I know... My life has been a (wonderful) > big roller-coaster for the last 1 to 2 years, and it seems that the > remainder of this year will be the same. Is good to know you're still there!, and just in time: > [on Fri, 31 Jan 2003 Livio wrote:] > > Bom, e tenho até março de 2004 para terminar o mestrado. Então esse > ano devo estar trabalhando bastante nesse projeto, mas eu creio que > terei um tempinho para ir ajudando o nosso querido Dillo. (Sloppy translation: Well, I have until March 2004 to finish the (Magister or Master). Then that year I must be working hard on that project, but I believe I'll have some time to help our dear Dillo. ) It'd be great if you can have the time to be back on Dillo. As usual there're plenty of things to do. Just let me know a plausible workload. > Anyways, just wanted to try to report that reading the README file, > one gets the impression that an "install-dpi-local" script should > exist to install the dpis in your ~/.dillo/ directory for you. I have > googled for it, and tried searching in the CVS ATTIC with no > success. Things are working for me just fine, because I know how/where > to copy the dpi files, but I can imagine that some of our users might > be frustated, or require additional assistance. > > So, before releasing 0.8.1 it might be a good idea to fix the > README, explaining what is needed for a "local" install, or even > better, resurrect the install-dpi-local script. Fixed. Actually the script exists inside the 0.8.0 tarball, but I forgot to add it into the CVS. > best regards to all! Um abraço! Jorge.-

April 26, 2004

[Dillo-dev]About porting Dillo to FLTK.

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi there, We've had long email threads (between our core developers and some FLTK core devs.) dicussing about how the port of dillo to FLTK could be done. We've explored different paths (in abstract) and posting all the threads to dillo-dev would add more to confussion than clarity because each one was explored as it were the chosen one. For simplicity and to keep all the developers in dillo-dev well informed (and certainly inviting the interested ones to take part in the process), I prepared this recapitulation about the more relevant issues. It's a long document with a lot of information. Cheers Jorge.- PS: Previous background on this topic can be found at dillo-dev's archives: http://www.dillo.org/search-dillo-dev.html. For instance: search for "FLTK" by "jcid" sorted by "Relevance". This will not only bring my posts but also the ones from Michael Sweet that I forwarded to dillo-dev. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > [Sebastian] > Furthermore, I have plans to extract at least the core of Dw, and make > an own library of it. The package is already finished, I'm just > polishing another package, which uses Dw. (This is "rtfl", the program > for which the macros in "debug.h" are for.) > > Perhaps it is at least possible, to make Dw itself independent of the > widget toolkit (Gtk/FLTK), ... > [Sebastian] > Dw can be rather simply extracted, and probably it is the best to > start with a testbed. I've attached a test program (I searched > for it somewhere in the mailing list, therefore the french > identifiers :-), you have to build dillo first, to run > it. Perhaps it is simpler to include it into the dillo tarball > itself. > [Sebastian] > Another aspect is portability: When using other toolkits than Gtk, > GtkDwViewport may be replaced. > > For archieving this, the following new design will be sufficient: > > +--------------------+ 1 * +-------------------+ > | DwRenderingContext |---------->| DwRenderingWindow | > +--------------------+ +-------------------+ > 1 ^ | 1 > | | > viewport | | child (the top-level DwWidget) > | | > * | V 0..1 > +----------+ 0..1 > | DwWidget |--. parent > +----------+ | > * | | > `-------' > (children) > [Sebastian] > As for the actual porting, I'm currently working on two topics, which > should make porting simpler, since they reduce the Gtk/Gdk specific > stuff into single modules: > > 1. I'm currently changing the design of image handling as I > described in doc/DwImage.txt in the tarball, section "Future > Extensions". As I've seen now, this is also necessary for > topic 2. > > 2. After this, I'll implement the ideas I wrote before (abstraction > of the actual drawing), in the best case, it should be a simple > matter to write a replacement for the viewport, plus some > changes in dw_style.[ch]. (Dependance of the GtkObject model not > yet considered.) > [Matt] > Abstraction is definitely the best thing to do here. I am pretty sure > we can cross reference between the a-layer and whatever FLTK has to > offer. Spontaneously I see the need for buttons and input fields, line, > box, text and image drawing, image scaling and the dreaded 16-bit vs. > 32-bit coordinates. > > [Jorge] > > Once again, I'd wish to know how a seasoned FLTK developer > > foresees the merging path (from their point of view). With regard > > to Dw, you're the authoritative source! ;) > > [Matt] > At this point - if you guys are still interested - I guess I should > take an extensive tour through the Dw code and see, which parts map > directly onto FLTK, and which parts would need modifications or even > rewriting. ------------------ 32 bit coordinates ------------------ > [Jorge] > > Hi Michael, > > We have been extensively discussing how to port Dillo to FLTK > with Mattias M. and Sebastian. One of the key points is how to > provide for a widget that overcomes the problem of 16 bit > coordinates (GtkLayout currently solves this). > > In a formar email you told me that FLTK2.0 had 32 bit > coordinates, but suggested me to use 1.2.x release that would > also come with 32 bit coordinates. > > Matt was somewhat surprised by this... > [Matt] > I talked to Mike. He changed the coordinates to 32 bit in his local > version already. So in short, fltk 1.2 will have 32 bit coordinates. > Versions 1.1 and 1.0 will not be changed anymore, however 1.2 should > become the standard as soon as we release it, since it is source code > compatible to 1.1. > [Matt] > I went through the current CVS code yesterday, and it seems like we had > a mixup between 1.1 and 1.2. Not a biggie, but I re-merged with a > previous CVS version. The current CVS is now fully 32 bit. tested and > working. > [Jorge] > So we have to use 1.2.x CVS, but which docs are recommended for it? > > [Matt] > The 1.2 cvs contains the full 1.1 documentation and is beeing corrected > to reflect 1.2 changes and additions. I am in the process of adding > doxygen style comments to all fltk classes and methods (95% done), so > simply running the command 'doxygen' will create a second, more > 'techie' documentation in docs/html/index.html. ------- Signals ------- > [Jorge] > Appart from that, the 32 bit issue and the signals (perhaps > solved with Fl_Signal). > [Sebastian] > As for signals: This should be rather simple to re-implement. I just > hacked a prototype of very simple framework for signals, which can be > downloaded at <http://www.dillo.org/misc_files/signals-0.0.1.tar.gz>. > It lacks events returning boolean (which we need), and some more > features (which we do not need), but shows that signals aren't really > a problem. ------- Plugins ------- >> OK, there's no plugin API in FLTK. > > Do you mean what GtkPlug/GtkSocket does? There protocol has been (or > is currently?) standardized at freedesktop.org, if an implemtation is > possible (and why should it not?), this is certainly a candidate for > merging into FLTK. > > > [Matt] > > Yeah, I talked to Bill, and we decided that we will create an Fl > > utility library that offers cross platform access to files and sockets, > > provides threads and locks, and also some standardised plugin > > interface. We will be smarter this time and write it in FLTK2 with an > > FLTK1 compatibility layer... . ------------------------------ About how to approach the port ------------------------------ > > >> [Sebastian] > > >> I'm more > > >> than ever convinced that this was the right decision, especially since > > >> then, incremental resizing has been added, what would have been very > > >> difficult in Gtk. Furthermore, this shows the benefit of having an own > > >> widget set, which can be infinitively changed to our needs. > > > > > > [Jorge] > > > In that case, it seems that the path to go is to port Dw to > > > FLTK, and maybe get rid of some widgets (as DwImage) when they > > > can be replaced by an FLTK embedded one. > > > > > > In anycase, Matt is better qualified than me to comment on > > > this. > > > > [Matt] > > All images in FLTK can be resized at any point. > > > > I understand that you prefer to have your own widget set, and I surely > > don't want to convince you different (because we wanted the same thing > > and that's why we wrote FLTK in the first place). However, should you > > decide to go with FLTK, then all the source code is available to you, > > so you can do the same modifications that you would do in your code. If > > those changes (or additions) are useful for the FLTK toolkit, I'll be > > happy to do them for you (ah, that's where the benefit is for you). > > [Jorge] > This is a very interesting collaboration scenery. I believe we > could start as Sebastian suggests, and merge those features you > see could benefit FLTK. (as for images, and maybe the "complex > resize" widget using size hints to name two). > > [Sebastian] > To make this clear again: What we currently have is an own widget > toolkit within Gtk, i.e. Dw widgets, from which the page is build, are > not Gtk widgets, but instead, for Gtk, a tree of Dw widgets is a just > _one_ huge Gtk widget. (With the exception of Gtk widgets embedded > into Dw.) > > I'd like to stick with the same design (with FLTK instead of Gtk), > also on the long run. For this, there are rather few requirements for > the GUI toolkit, mainly only the 32 bit issue. Integrating both > toolkits, in the way that Dw widgets will become FLTK widgets, will > however make things generally more complicated, we will have a hybrid > which has to deal with both rendering HTML (and other) documents on > one hand and GUIs on the other hand. The duplicate code in the current > design (like event handling), is rather minimal, but integrating would > mean one of the following possibilities: > > 1. Making FLTK as abstract as possible: This would make Dw as > complex as it is now, but instead add an unneccessary > dependency, where the development of dillo will often have to > deal with the limits which any GUI toolkit has. > > 2. Incorperating stuff from Dw into FLTK: This would IMO a very bad > decision of the FLTK team. Dw was designed for rendering > documents etc., and its layout mechanism has several ad hoc > features (size hints, width extremes, incremental resizing), > which should not be in a toolkit for GUIs. Actually, the design > is quite ugly at some points. > > Furthermore, the design often changes, some historical examples: > > - Dw widgets had baselines from the beginning, but they were > fist used much later. (I was indeed hesitating at the > beginning.) > - Tables made it neccessary to introduce width extremes. > (Very ad hoc: Why not height extremes? Because texts are -- > in most languages -- written horizontally, and then > vertically split into lines.) > > - Also with tables (although noticed some time later), it > became clear that the current resizing mechanism was > inefficient and had to be extended. (Notice that Dw > requires that several resizes per second must be handled, > much more what is neededfor GUIs.) > > These were certainly not the last changes, e.g. for CSS, we will > have some other requirements, which are yet not specified. Also, > this shows that most requirements are not obvious before they > are first needed. > > If FLTK wants to adopt Dw features, it will be neccecary to > change FLTK often, and since it is not part of dillo, the > development of dillo will be slowed down, until new FLTK > releases. > > 3. We move stuff from Dw into our own version of FLTK: This would > probably the worst possible desicion, we would fork FLTK and > have to maintain it, also the parts which deal with pure GUI > aspects. > > Dw will work fine with FLTK in the way analogue to the current way, > and the problems with this split are really not as dramatic as Jorge > describes it. The FLTK developers should not make the mistake to take > just one (probably rather prominent) project and change their work so > that it just fits within it. And dillo should keep it dependencies as > low as neccessary. ------------ Porting Plan ------------ > [Sebastian] > I'd suggest the following: > > 1. Finish the planned abstractions. The general idea is to have the > Gtk/FLTK specific code in small modules, which may be rewritten in > a simple way. > > 2. Extract Dw from dillo, and write a test program for several aspects > of Dw. > > 3. Rewrite those modules mentioned in 1, and adjust the test > program. This step will still make Gtk necessary, because of the > Gtk object model, but UI control, event handling etc. will be done > by FLTK. > > AFAIS, the affected modules are the new GtkDwViewport, ImgBuf, and > DwStyle. The abstraction in step 1 may taken a bit more extreme, by > splitting up the latter two into toolkit-dependant and -independant > parts, we'll see. The dillo widgets themselves should not be > modified, if this is really necessary, this is a fault of the said > abstraction. > > After this, we will have a version of Dw, which works with FLTK. The > next step is to see how the parts we take from Gtk (object model with > signals) and GLib (several utilities) can be replaced, so that we can > get rid of the Gtk dependencies. Another topic it the port of the > actual UI; AFAIS, there should be no major problems. Appendix -------- -------------- About printing -------------- > > [Jorge] > > Is printing lost because the widget tree is not native FLTK, or > > is it assured by using FLTK's drawing primitives? > > [Sebastian] > Some remarks on this. First, we still have a "native" FLTK widget, > just that we have one large, complex FLTK widget (which complexity is > manages by Dw), instead of multiple smaller and simpler FLTK > widgets. The reimplementation of the viewport should use FLTK methods > for drawing, so there is no problem at all. > > Second, the abstraction described above should make this possible with > any toolkit, it should be simple to write a printing "viewport". > > Third, printing will anyway become more complex, for several > reasons. For one reason, I quote myself from a mail I sent Jorge, this > may also be interesting for Matt: > > <q> > I'm very sceptical about the idea to use the current rendering for > printing, for two reasons: First, the current rendering is designed > for dealing with viewports, not for pages. Pages are in some ways > different, e.g. you must break pages (instead of having one page of > unlimited height), and you cannot widen the page, you must break a > word, when it does not fit into the line, while it is more > reasonable to let the user scroll to the right, when this is > possible. (Furthermore, from a typographic point of view, dillo's > typesetting quality is sufficient for screen rendering, but rather > poor for printing, especially page breaking cannot be done as > simply as line breaking.) > > Second, most of the complexity has its roots in the requirement of > incremental rendering, which is neither needed, nor desired for > printing. Actually, it makes use for printing more complicated and > inefficient. (Although one rendering iteration has a nearly > constant time, it is as a whole still slower than a simple > non-iterative run.) > > [...] > </q> > > Furthermore, even if we would use Dw for printing (with ugly page > breaks etc.), we would need another widget tree, with the same content > of the current one, but with a state, which is different, e.g. the > top-level available width, which is the window width for the screen, > but the standard paper width for the printer.

April 24, 2004

Re: [Dillo-dev]Can't start dpid

by Barry Kauler

On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:20:42 -0600 Barry Kauler <bkauler(a)goosee.com> wrote: > > > > the problem is dpid won't start in my custom Puppy Linux > > > distro. > > Jorge, > Thanks for the feedback. > Now that I have dillorc file, dpid does load, but it still isn't > working. > If I start dillo from the commandline, and enter a url https://www.paypal.com, > nothing at all happens in the browser, no error msg even. > I get this output from dillo on the stdout/errout: > > Nav_open_url: Url=>https://www.paypal.com< > url_str = https://www.paypal.com > Dpi_parse_token: [<dpi cmd='answer' to_cmd='open_url' msg='nothing sent...'>] > Dpi: [Dpi_process_io] IOClose > > The paypal site is working, I just checked with Mozilla. > > If I right-click on a link to a file on a webpage and choose to > "Save link as...", the destination choice window comes up, but > after pressing OK button, the stdout/errout is this: > > ERROR: [Dpi_get_token] Can't find token start > ERROR: [Dpi_get_token] Can't find token start > ERROR: [Dpi_get_token] Can't find token start > ERROR: [Dpi_get_token] Can't find token start > Dpi: [Dpi_process_io] IOClose > Ok, I have used the modified file out of cvs, downloads.c, and yes, it does make a difference. Now I have downloading, except that there is something peculiar about the receive buffer. My file does not immediately see the file. I have only tried very small files. Refreshing ROX-Filers view of the directory does not help, but I mess around downloading some other file, and the previous one suddenly appears. But, ftp and https are still non-functional, as earlier reported. The https attempt is shown above, my report on trying ftp was in an earlier email. Maybe it is something to do with uClibc. Note, I've released Puppy version 0.8.5, with Dillo 0.8.0 with the modified downloads.c. It's a 45M iso, live-CD. www.goosee.com/puppy www.goosee.com/puppy/news.htm www.goosee.com/puppy/download/downpage.htm You should look at the code for the Light web browser. It brings up wget with a nice little window, with a progress bar. Light is also in Puppy, also my developer page has a link to the source. Regards, Barry Kauler

April 24, 2004