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Dillo 2.2 from a web designer's perspective

by corvid＠lavabit.com

Johannes wrote: > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 02:57:06PM -0600, Sam Trenholme wrote: > > So, I have a request: Please do not "fix" the @media all "bug" in > > Dillo's CSS support until http://acid2.acidtests.org gives us the > > entire smiling face. This way, web designers can continue to keep > > their sites looking reasonably nice in Dillo. > > Interesting point. On the other hand I doubt many web designers > actually care how their page looks in dillo :( Do we pay any attention to @media in css right now?

Feb. 23, 2010

Dillo 2.2 from a web designer's perspective

by Johannes.Hofmann＠gmx.de

Hi, On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 02:57:06PM -0600, Sam Trenholme wrote: > I have always had a soft spot for the Dillo web browser. It is the > only graphical browser I am able to get to run on an old Gateway > Handbook I have lurking around. Dillo is a browser which runs nicely > on Windows 3.11 era machines while any other current browser plain > simply does not run on a computer from that era. > > So, I like to keep up to date with what's happening with Dillo. > > Well, poking around I noticed Dillo 2.2 with CSS support was release > just over a week ago. Indeed, most web pages look nicer with the > limited CSS Dillo 2.2 supports than with no CSS at how. > > Naturally, I tested how Dillo 2.2 renders CSS. Which means going to > the Acid2 test at http://acid2.acidtests.org/ > > This is what I got: > > http://www.samiam.org/dillo/Dillo-2.2-acid2test.png I know, I tried it myself from time to time :) > > Now, I understand that it's going to take a lot of time and effort > from you developers to get a smiley face on this page. I don't expect > a Dillo 2.3 to be released tomorrow with a nice smiley face when > taking the Acid 2 test. I don't expect a smile there any time soon. There is a lot of details missing for complete CSS 2.1 support. On the other hand I expect many pages to look quite ok, once floats are working. > > However, what I think is important to do is to have it so web > designers who care about Dillo compatibility have a way of hiding CSS > which doesn't look good in Dillo while having their pages look fine in > other browsers. > > So, I've found a hack to hide CSS from Dillo: @media all > > Here's an example from the CSS for http://samiam.org/ > > @media all { > #htext { > margin-left: 80px; > } > } > #htext { > font-size: x-large; > font-weight: bold; > color: white; > } > > [...] > > @media all { > .t1 { background: #d1e2f2; > height: 1px; > font-size: 0px; > border-right: 1px solid #5a6173; > } > } @media all { > .t2 { background: #d1e2f2; > height: 1px; > display: block !important; > display: none; > border-right: 2px solid #5a6173; > } > } @media all { > .t3 { background: #acc6e6; > border-left: 2px solid #d1e2f2; > height: 2px; > font-size: 0px; > border-right: 2px solid #5a6173; > } > } > > [etc] What exact CSS feature is missing. From looking at your page I see: * floats - this is one of the big ticket items for dillo. * background images > > This works quite nicely with Dillo 2.2; @media all (an old hack used > for ancient versions of Opera with CSS problems) hides the CSS from > Dillo 2.2 while keeping the CSS visible in Internet Explorer 6 and all > other web browsers I know of. I was able to use it to have my page > look reasonable in Dillo 2.2. > > So, I have a request: Please do not "fix" the @media all "bug" in > Dillo's CSS support until http://acid2.acidtests.org gives us the > entire smiling face. This way, web designers can continue to keep > their sites looking reasonably nice in Dillo. Interesting point. On the other hand I doubt many web designers actually care how their page looks in dillo :( > > Thank you for the excellent browser and allowing people with 386s and > 486s to still browse the Internet. Thanks. We will do our best :) Cheers, Johannes

Feb. 23, 2010

dillo 2.2 rpms?

by Johannes.Hofmann＠gmx.de

On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 09:12:16AM -0800, Globe Trotter wrote: > Thanks very much. I do not think there is much hope then, given that dillo is working off fltk2 which Fedora (at least) will not incorporate in their distro. as I said, I could set up something on opensuse Build_Service, which could give us always up to date packages for: Suse Ubuntu Fedora Debian RHEL Mandriva But to get this started, I would need rpm spec files and something corresponding for .deb based systems. Do you want to give it a try? Cheers, Johannes PS: Maybe some of our packagers could also comment what they think about this.

Feb. 23, 2010

Dillo 2.2 from a web designer's perspective

by strenholme.usenet＠gmail.com

I have always had a soft spot for the Dillo web browser. It is the only graphical browser I am able to get to run on an old Gateway Handbook I have lurking around. Dillo is a browser which runs nicely on Windows 3.11 era machines while any other current browser plain simply does not run on a computer from that era. So, I like to keep up to date with what's happening with Dillo. Well, poking around I noticed Dillo 2.2 with CSS support was release just over a week ago. Indeed, most web pages look nicer with the limited CSS Dillo 2.2 supports than with no CSS at how. Naturally, I tested how Dillo 2.2 renders CSS. Which means going to the Acid2 test at http://acid2.acidtests.org/ This is what I got: http://www.samiam.org/dillo/Dillo-2.2-acid2test.png Now, I understand that it's going to take a lot of time and effort from you developers to get a smiley face on this page. I don't expect a Dillo 2.3 to be released tomorrow with a nice smiley face when taking the Acid 2 test. However, what I think is important to do is to have it so web designers who care about Dillo compatibility have a way of hiding CSS which doesn't look good in Dillo while having their pages look fine in other browsers. So, I've found a hack to hide CSS from Dillo: @media all Here's an example from the CSS for http://samiam.org/ @media all { #htext { margin-left: 80px; } } #htext { font-size: x-large; font-weight: bold; color: white; } [...] @media all { .t1 { background: #d1e2f2; height: 1px; font-size: 0px; border-right: 1px solid #5a6173; } } @media all { .t2 { background: #d1e2f2; height: 1px; display: block !important; display: none; border-right: 2px solid #5a6173; } } @media all { .t3 { background: #acc6e6; border-left: 2px solid #d1e2f2; height: 2px; font-size: 0px; border-right: 2px solid #5a6173; } } [etc] This works quite nicely with Dillo 2.2; @media all (an old hack used for ancient versions of Opera with CSS problems) hides the CSS from Dillo 2.2 while keeping the CSS visible in Internet Explorer 6 and all other web browsers I know of. I was able to use it to have my page look reasonable in Dillo 2.2. So, I have a request: Please do not "fix" the @media all "bug" in Dillo's CSS support until http://acid2.acidtests.org gives us the entire smiling face. This way, web designers can continue to keep their sites looking reasonably nice in Dillo. Thank you for the excellent browser and allowing people with 386s and 486s to still browse the Internet. - Sam

Feb. 22, 2010

dillo 2.2 rpms?

by itsme_410＠yahoo.com

Thanks very much. I do not think there is much hope then, given that dillo is working off fltk2 which Fedora (at least) will not incorporate in their distro. T --- On Sun, 2/21/10, Johannes Hofmann <Johannes.Hofmann(a)gmx.de> wrote: > From: Johannes Hofmann <Johannes.Hofmann(a)gmx.de> > Subject: Re: [Dillo-dev] dillo 2.2 rpms? > To: dillo-dev(a)dillo.org > Date: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 4:28 PM > On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 08:31:14PM > -0800, Globe Trotter wrote: > > --- On Thu, 2/18/10, corvid <corvid(a)lavabit.com> > wrote: > > > > > From: corvid <corvid(a)lavabit.com> > > > Subject: Re: [Dillo-dev] dillo 2.2 rpms? > > > To: dillo-dev(a)dillo.org > > > Date: Thursday, February 18, 2010, 12:25 AM > > > T wrote: > > > > Any plan to release 32-bit and 64-bit RPMs > of dillo > > > 2.2 for Fedora 12? > > > > > > I haven't heard anything about packages from > anyone at all > > > yet, > > > which surprises me... > > > > > > > So, will there be rpms or .debs for Fedora > 12/Ubuntu/Debian and the like soon? > > Until now rpms, .debs and so on were built by volunteers > running > these systems. Also some distros have dillo in their > official > packages - but it usually takes time to get new versions > in. > > For this release we did not get any feedback from our usual > packagers, > so no packages are on the horizon. > > I might setup something on http://de.opensuse.org/Build_Service but > only if I get working spec files. > > Cheers, > Johannes > > _______________________________________________ > Dillo-dev mailing list > Dillo-dev(a)dillo.org > http://lists.auriga.wearlab.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dillo-dev >

Feb. 22, 2010

View source

by Johannes.Hofmann＠gmx.de

On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 06:11:55PM +0100, Johannes Hofmann wrote: > > > > > * It would be nice to unify the look'n feel of the various > > > autogenerated HTML in dillo: > > > * splash screen > > > * directory listings > > > * bookmarks > > > * and now view source > > > I would propose to simplify the HTML as much as possible (e.g. > > > just <ul>'s for bookmarks and have a single common CSS snipplet > > > in a single header file that is included by the various DPIs. > > > Hopefully some webdesigner could then adapt this CSS to make > > > things look nice. > > > Also it would be handy to have some "id=dillo_bla" attribute in > > > each of the pages so that users can change the look of bookmarks or > > > view source individually in their ~/.dillo/style.css > > > > A common style (or colors at least) sounds sensible. > > > > I'm happy with bookmarks as they are, but is no surprise as I > > coded them. Mine is very fast and < 28 KB, I assume yours is much > > bigger. In that case I'd prefer to have both options in the same > > dpi code (like viewsource, but configurable with an rc file). > > The point is not rendering speed. It's fast enough :) > I was rather thinking about reducing complexity by separating > content and style using CSS. The look could be basically the same as > currently, but of course there might be some differences regarding > wrapping and so on. > Perhaps some web designer could help here? > Just to explain what I have in mind I made a static HTML bookmarks page: http://www.ecademix.com/JohannesHofmann/tmp/dillo_bm.html Please have a look at the HTML, the style is not really polished as I'm not a designer :) Cheers, Johannes

Feb. 22, 2010

dillo 2.2 rpms?

by Johannes.Hofmann＠gmx.de

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 08:31:14PM -0800, Globe Trotter wrote: > --- On Thu, 2/18/10, corvid <corvid(a)lavabit.com> wrote: > > > From: corvid <corvid(a)lavabit.com> > > Subject: Re: [Dillo-dev] dillo 2.2 rpms? > > To: dillo-dev(a)dillo.org > > Date: Thursday, February 18, 2010, 12:25 AM > > T wrote: > > > Any plan to release 32-bit and 64-bit RPMs of dillo > > 2.2 for Fedora 12? > > > > I haven't heard anything about packages from anyone at all > > yet, > > which surprises me... > > > > So, will there be rpms or .debs for Fedora 12/Ubuntu/Debian and the like soon? Until now rpms, .debs and so on were built by volunteers running these systems. Also some distros have dillo in their official packages - but it usually takes time to get new versions in. For this release we did not get any feedback from our usual packagers, so no packages are on the horizon. I might setup something on http://de.opensuse.org/Build_Service but only if I get working spec files. Cheers, Johannes

Feb. 21, 2010

fltk font issue

by Johannes.Hofmann＠gmx.de

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 04:20:40PM +0000, corvid wrote: > A few weeks ago, bug 940 was added. A segfault. The submitter gets > it with Tiny Core. I don't see it with my non-TC setup, so I asked > Colin about it. He suspected that it had to do with TC's dearth of > fonts. > > http://www.fltk.org/str.php?L2319 > was added yesterday, and is about someone with dillo-2.2 getting > font crashes. fltk::setfont() calling fontopen(), which gets NULL > from XftFontOpen() (as the manpage says can happen). > > Since this is a fltk2 thing, I think this will fall to us to fix. > > As for whether we simply want to stick something like > if (!xftfont) > return; > after the fontopen() call, or we want to try harder in some way, > I don't know yet. I don't understand all the details especially whether it is ok to return without assigning anything to current. But it might be good to suggest the fix on the fltk list.

Feb. 21, 2010

View source

by Johannes.Hofmann＠gmx.de

On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 04:35:01PM -0300, Jorge Arellano Cid wrote: > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 07:08:50PM +0100, Johannes Hofmann wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 02:33:26PM -0300, Jorge Arellano Cid wrote: > > > Hi there, > > > > > > Just committed a patch for "view source" as a filter dpi. The > > > source is simple and is well commented. There're three modes: > > > plain text, numbered plain text, numbered html. The latter one is > > > the default. Just give the source a look to change modes. > > > > > > It is very simple to tweak and improve. I remember somebody > > > asked for "view source" in a favorite editor. From the dpi is > > > simple. e.g. save to /tmp/source.txt and execl your editor. > > > > > > Comments, patches, cool styles, etc are welcomed. > > > > Very nice indeed! Here come some random thoughts: > > > > * Some time ago we thought about using a common URI scheme for view > > source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View-source_URI_scheme > > Maybe it's worth a look again. > > Yes, storing the viewed URI in the viewsource URI helps. > > > * Would it be possible to use a table in HTML so that one can > > cut/paste source without the line numbers? Not sure how that > > affects the rendering performance. > > I don't know. > > The trick to make line numbers follow wrapped lines is to have > a shared the row, which OTOH includes line numbers in copy/paste. Ah ok. > > > > * It would be nice to unify the look'n feel of the various > > autogenerated HTML in dillo: > > * splash screen > > * directory listings > > * bookmarks > > * and now view source > > I would propose to simplify the HTML as much as possible (e.g. > > just <ul>'s for bookmarks and have a single common CSS snipplet > > in a single header file that is included by the various DPIs. > > Hopefully some webdesigner could then adapt this CSS to make > > things look nice. > > Also it would be handy to have some "id=dillo_bla" attribute in > > each of the pages so that users can change the look of bookmarks or > > view source individually in their ~/.dillo/style.css > > A common style (or colors at least) sounds sensible. > > I'm happy with bookmarks as they are, but is no surprise as I > coded them. Mine is very fast and < 28 KB, I assume yours is much > bigger. In that case I'd prefer to have both options in the same > dpi code (like viewsource, but configurable with an rc file). The point is not rendering speed. It's fast enough :) I was rather thinking about reducing complexity by separating content and style using CSS. The look could be basically the same as currently, but of course there might be some differences regarding wrapping and so on. Perhaps some web designer could help here? > > > > * Can we change "View Stylesheets" to also use the new DPI? > > Yes, and also "page bugs", and then get rid of FLTK's > TextDisplay widget. Yes, that would be cool. Maybe even links from page bugs to the corresponding line in view source. Cheers, Johannes

Feb. 21, 2010

View source

by jcid＠dillo.org

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 07:08:50PM +0100, Johannes Hofmann wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 02:33:26PM -0300, Jorge Arellano Cid wrote: > > Hi there, > > > > Just committed a patch for "view source" as a filter dpi. The > > source is simple and is well commented. There're three modes: > > plain text, numbered plain text, numbered html. The latter one is > > the default. Just give the source a look to change modes. > > > > It is very simple to tweak and improve. I remember somebody > > asked for "view source" in a favorite editor. From the dpi is > > simple. e.g. save to /tmp/source.txt and execl your editor. > > > > Comments, patches, cool styles, etc are welcomed. > > Very nice indeed! Here come some random thoughts: > > * Some time ago we thought about using a common URI scheme for view > source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View-source_URI_scheme > Maybe it's worth a look again. Yes, storing the viewed URI in the viewsource URI helps. > * Would it be possible to use a table in HTML so that one can > cut/paste source without the line numbers? Not sure how that > affects the rendering performance. I don't know. The trick to make line numbers follow wrapped lines is to have a shared the row, which OTOH includes line numbers in copy/paste. > * It would be nice to unify the look'n feel of the various > autogenerated HTML in dillo: > * splash screen > * directory listings > * bookmarks > * and now view source > I would propose to simplify the HTML as much as possible (e.g. > just <ul>'s for bookmarks and have a single common CSS snipplet > in a single header file that is included by the various DPIs. > Hopefully some webdesigner could then adapt this CSS to make > things look nice. > Also it would be handy to have some "id=dillo_bla" attribute in > each of the pages so that users can change the look of bookmarks or > view source individually in their ~/.dillo/style.css A common style (or colors at least) sounds sensible. I'm happy with bookmarks as they are, but is no surprise as I coded them. Mine is very fast and < 28 KB, I assume yours is much bigger. In that case I'd prefer to have both options in the same dpi code (like viewsource, but configurable with an rc file). > * Can we change "View Stylesheets" to also use the new DPI? Yes, and also "page bugs", and then get rid of FLTK's TextDisplay widget. -- Cheers Jorge.-

Feb. 20, 2010