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Dillo 2.2 from a web designer's perspective

by strenholme.usenet＠gmail.com

>> Now, I understand that it's going to take a lot of time and effort >> from you developers to get a smiley face on this page. ?I don't expect >> a Dillo 2.3 to be released tomorrow with a nice smiley face when >> taking the Acid 2 test. > > I don't expect a smile there any time soon. There is a lot of > details missing for complete CSS 2.1 support. > On the other hand I expect many pages to look quite ok, once floats > are working. Agreed. Real web browser developers know that fixing things so that real-world pages look better is more important than passing those Acid tests; those tests mainly exist to encourage makers of mainstream browsers to keep up to date with the newest CSS and Javascript (I mean ECMAscript) standards. > What exact CSS feature is missing. From looking at your page I see: > > ?* floats - this is one of the big ticket items for dillo. > ?* background images One thing that would be nice is background images. However, the main reason why I added a bunch of @media all things to hide CSS from Dillo 2.2 is because I have a nice-looking blue navigation box in the upper right hand corner of the text content that is drawn using CSS. Fairly strict interpretation of CSS standards is needed for it to look OK. Indeed, I have a bunch of CSS hacks to have something that looks almost as nice in Internet Explorer 6. This box looked really ugly in Dillo 2.2 until I hid all of that CSS from Dillo using @media all. Now, since I'm an open source developer myself, I understand that you're not getting paid for this and that we do not have a customer-supplier relationship here. I understand that, if I really want CSS background images, I need to either supply a patch or pay someone to make said patch. > Interesting point. On the other hand I doubt many web designers > actually care how their page looks in dillo :( I always try and keep my pages reasonable looking in Dillo because it is, for certain older computers, the only way to graphically browse the net at all. There are probably people out there on fixed incomes still using 486s or early Pentium computers who need to use Dillo for accessing the web. Dillo fills an important niche for people who say "I can't run even Opera 9 on my computer"; I can tell them the page looks fine in Dillo and they really shouldn't be using Netscape 4 or whatever to browse the web today. - Sam

Feb. 24, 2010

dillo 2.2 rpms?

by strenholme.usenet＠gmail.com

>> > Thanks very much. I do not think there is much hope then, given that dillo is working off fltk2 which Fedora (at least) will not incorporate in their distro. You know, it's very interesting to me how Linux admins have this idea that, if a given program isn't available as a prebuilt package for their distro, they can't run it on their system. Old Solaris admins know better (actually, I was never a Solaris admin, but that's another story). Since Solaris has been famous for having their entire user space being something from the dinosaur age, Solaris admins know to put all of the cool stuff (GCC, BASH, GAWK, Perl, Python, the works) in /usr/local/ Same thing can be done with Dillo. Indeed, this is how I got Dillo to run in RHEL 5.4 (OK, CentOS 5.4): * Go to http://fltk.org/ and download the latest Fltk 2.0. Quick link: wget http://ftp.easysw.com/pub/fltk/snapshots/fltk-2.0.x-r6970.tar.bz2 * tar xvjf fltk-2.0*tar.bz2 * cd fltk-2.0* * ./configure ; make * su * make install Once I did this, Dillo 2.2 compiled and ran like a charm. - Sam

Feb. 24, 2010

dillo 2.2 rpms?

by jcid＠dillo.org

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 09:23:46PM +0100, Johannes Hofmann wrote: > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 09:12:16AM -0800, Globe Trotter wrote: > > Thanks very much. I do not think there is much hope then, given that dillo is working off fltk2 which Fedora (at least) will not incorporate in their distro. > > as I said, I could set up something on opensuse Build_Service, which > could give us always up to date packages for: > > Suse > Ubuntu > Fedora > Debian > RHEL > Mandriva > > But to get this started, I would need rpm spec files and something > corresponding for .deb based systems. > Do you want to give it a try? I don't know the rpm system, but Kelson published a SPEC here: http://www.hyperborea.org/software/dillo/ (page bottom). -- Cheers Jorge.-

Feb. 23, 2010

Dillo 2.2 from a web designer's perspective

by Johannes.Hofmann＠gmx.de

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 09:30:41PM +0000, corvid wrote: > Johannes wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 02:57:06PM -0600, Sam Trenholme wrote: > > > So, I have a request: Please do not "fix" the @media all "bug" in > > > Dillo's CSS support until http://acid2.acidtests.org gives us the > > > entire smiling face. This way, web designers can continue to keep > > > their sites looking reasonably nice in Dillo. > > > > Interesting point. On the other hand I doubt many web designers > > actually care how their page looks in dillo :( > > Do we pay any attention to @media in css right now? No, of those @* things we only parse @import atm.

Feb. 23, 2010

Dillo 2.2 from a web designer's perspective

by corvid＠lavabit.com

Johannes wrote: > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 02:57:06PM -0600, Sam Trenholme wrote: > > So, I have a request: Please do not "fix" the @media all "bug" in > > Dillo's CSS support until http://acid2.acidtests.org gives us the > > entire smiling face. This way, web designers can continue to keep > > their sites looking reasonably nice in Dillo. > > Interesting point. On the other hand I doubt many web designers > actually care how their page looks in dillo :( Do we pay any attention to @media in css right now?

Feb. 23, 2010

Dillo 2.2 from a web designer's perspective

by Johannes.Hofmann＠gmx.de

Hi, On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 02:57:06PM -0600, Sam Trenholme wrote: > I have always had a soft spot for the Dillo web browser. It is the > only graphical browser I am able to get to run on an old Gateway > Handbook I have lurking around. Dillo is a browser which runs nicely > on Windows 3.11 era machines while any other current browser plain > simply does not run on a computer from that era. > > So, I like to keep up to date with what's happening with Dillo. > > Well, poking around I noticed Dillo 2.2 with CSS support was release > just over a week ago. Indeed, most web pages look nicer with the > limited CSS Dillo 2.2 supports than with no CSS at how. > > Naturally, I tested how Dillo 2.2 renders CSS. Which means going to > the Acid2 test at http://acid2.acidtests.org/ > > This is what I got: > > http://www.samiam.org/dillo/Dillo-2.2-acid2test.png I know, I tried it myself from time to time :) > > Now, I understand that it's going to take a lot of time and effort > from you developers to get a smiley face on this page. I don't expect > a Dillo 2.3 to be released tomorrow with a nice smiley face when > taking the Acid 2 test. I don't expect a smile there any time soon. There is a lot of details missing for complete CSS 2.1 support. On the other hand I expect many pages to look quite ok, once floats are working. > > However, what I think is important to do is to have it so web > designers who care about Dillo compatibility have a way of hiding CSS > which doesn't look good in Dillo while having their pages look fine in > other browsers. > > So, I've found a hack to hide CSS from Dillo: @media all > > Here's an example from the CSS for http://samiam.org/ > > @media all { > #htext { > margin-left: 80px; > } > } > #htext { > font-size: x-large; > font-weight: bold; > color: white; > } > > [...] > > @media all { > .t1 { background: #d1e2f2; > height: 1px; > font-size: 0px; > border-right: 1px solid #5a6173; > } > } @media all { > .t2 { background: #d1e2f2; > height: 1px; > display: block !important; > display: none; > border-right: 2px solid #5a6173; > } > } @media all { > .t3 { background: #acc6e6; > border-left: 2px solid #d1e2f2; > height: 2px; > font-size: 0px; > border-right: 2px solid #5a6173; > } > } > > [etc] What exact CSS feature is missing. From looking at your page I see: * floats - this is one of the big ticket items for dillo. * background images > > This works quite nicely with Dillo 2.2; @media all (an old hack used > for ancient versions of Opera with CSS problems) hides the CSS from > Dillo 2.2 while keeping the CSS visible in Internet Explorer 6 and all > other web browsers I know of. I was able to use it to have my page > look reasonable in Dillo 2.2. > > So, I have a request: Please do not "fix" the @media all "bug" in > Dillo's CSS support until http://acid2.acidtests.org gives us the > entire smiling face. This way, web designers can continue to keep > their sites looking reasonably nice in Dillo. Interesting point. On the other hand I doubt many web designers actually care how their page looks in dillo :( > > Thank you for the excellent browser and allowing people with 386s and > 486s to still browse the Internet. Thanks. We will do our best :) Cheers, Johannes

Feb. 23, 2010

dillo 2.2 rpms?

by Johannes.Hofmann＠gmx.de

On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 09:12:16AM -0800, Globe Trotter wrote: > Thanks very much. I do not think there is much hope then, given that dillo is working off fltk2 which Fedora (at least) will not incorporate in their distro. as I said, I could set up something on opensuse Build_Service, which could give us always up to date packages for: Suse Ubuntu Fedora Debian RHEL Mandriva But to get this started, I would need rpm spec files and something corresponding for .deb based systems. Do you want to give it a try? Cheers, Johannes PS: Maybe some of our packagers could also comment what they think about this.

Feb. 23, 2010

Dillo 2.2 from a web designer's perspective

by strenholme.usenet＠gmail.com

I have always had a soft spot for the Dillo web browser. It is the only graphical browser I am able to get to run on an old Gateway Handbook I have lurking around. Dillo is a browser which runs nicely on Windows 3.11 era machines while any other current browser plain simply does not run on a computer from that era. So, I like to keep up to date with what's happening with Dillo. Well, poking around I noticed Dillo 2.2 with CSS support was release just over a week ago. Indeed, most web pages look nicer with the limited CSS Dillo 2.2 supports than with no CSS at how. Naturally, I tested how Dillo 2.2 renders CSS. Which means going to the Acid2 test at http://acid2.acidtests.org/ This is what I got: http://www.samiam.org/dillo/Dillo-2.2-acid2test.png Now, I understand that it's going to take a lot of time and effort from you developers to get a smiley face on this page. I don't expect a Dillo 2.3 to be released tomorrow with a nice smiley face when taking the Acid 2 test. However, what I think is important to do is to have it so web designers who care about Dillo compatibility have a way of hiding CSS which doesn't look good in Dillo while having their pages look fine in other browsers. So, I've found a hack to hide CSS from Dillo: @media all Here's an example from the CSS for http://samiam.org/ @media all { #htext { margin-left: 80px; } } #htext { font-size: x-large; font-weight: bold; color: white; } [...] @media all { .t1 { background: #d1e2f2; height: 1px; font-size: 0px; border-right: 1px solid #5a6173; } } @media all { .t2 { background: #d1e2f2; height: 1px; display: block !important; display: none; border-right: 2px solid #5a6173; } } @media all { .t3 { background: #acc6e6; border-left: 2px solid #d1e2f2; height: 2px; font-size: 0px; border-right: 2px solid #5a6173; } } [etc] This works quite nicely with Dillo 2.2; @media all (an old hack used for ancient versions of Opera with CSS problems) hides the CSS from Dillo 2.2 while keeping the CSS visible in Internet Explorer 6 and all other web browsers I know of. I was able to use it to have my page look reasonable in Dillo 2.2. So, I have a request: Please do not "fix" the @media all "bug" in Dillo's CSS support until http://acid2.acidtests.org gives us the entire smiling face. This way, web designers can continue to keep their sites looking reasonably nice in Dillo. Thank you for the excellent browser and allowing people with 386s and 486s to still browse the Internet. - Sam

Feb. 22, 2010

dillo 2.2 rpms?

by itsme_410＠yahoo.com

Thanks very much. I do not think there is much hope then, given that dillo is working off fltk2 which Fedora (at least) will not incorporate in their distro. T --- On Sun, 2/21/10, Johannes Hofmann <Johannes.Hofmann(a)gmx.de> wrote: > From: Johannes Hofmann <Johannes.Hofmann(a)gmx.de> > Subject: Re: [Dillo-dev] dillo 2.2 rpms? > To: dillo-dev(a)dillo.org > Date: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 4:28 PM > On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 08:31:14PM > -0800, Globe Trotter wrote: > > --- On Thu, 2/18/10, corvid <corvid(a)lavabit.com> > wrote: > > > > > From: corvid <corvid(a)lavabit.com> > > > Subject: Re: [Dillo-dev] dillo 2.2 rpms? > > > To: dillo-dev(a)dillo.org > > > Date: Thursday, February 18, 2010, 12:25 AM > > > T wrote: > > > > Any plan to release 32-bit and 64-bit RPMs > of dillo > > > 2.2 for Fedora 12? > > > > > > I haven't heard anything about packages from > anyone at all > > > yet, > > > which surprises me... > > > > > > > So, will there be rpms or .debs for Fedora > 12/Ubuntu/Debian and the like soon? > > Until now rpms, .debs and so on were built by volunteers > running > these systems. Also some distros have dillo in their > official > packages - but it usually takes time to get new versions > in. > > For this release we did not get any feedback from our usual > packagers, > so no packages are on the horizon. > > I might setup something on http://de.opensuse.org/Build_Service but > only if I get working spec files. > > Cheers, > Johannes > > _______________________________________________ > Dillo-dev mailing list > Dillo-dev(a)dillo.org > http://lists.auriga.wearlab.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dillo-dev >

Feb. 22, 2010

View source

by Johannes.Hofmann＠gmx.de

On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 06:11:55PM +0100, Johannes Hofmann wrote: > > > > > * It would be nice to unify the look'n feel of the various > > > autogenerated HTML in dillo: > > > * splash screen > > > * directory listings > > > * bookmarks > > > * and now view source > > > I would propose to simplify the HTML as much as possible (e.g. > > > just <ul>'s for bookmarks and have a single common CSS snipplet > > > in a single header file that is included by the various DPIs. > > > Hopefully some webdesigner could then adapt this CSS to make > > > things look nice. > > > Also it would be handy to have some "id=dillo_bla" attribute in > > > each of the pages so that users can change the look of bookmarks or > > > view source individually in their ~/.dillo/style.css > > > > A common style (or colors at least) sounds sensible. > > > > I'm happy with bookmarks as they are, but is no surprise as I > > coded them. Mine is very fast and < 28 KB, I assume yours is much > > bigger. In that case I'd prefer to have both options in the same > > dpi code (like viewsource, but configurable with an rc file). > > The point is not rendering speed. It's fast enough :) > I was rather thinking about reducing complexity by separating > content and style using CSS. The look could be basically the same as > currently, but of course there might be some differences regarding > wrapping and so on. > Perhaps some web designer could help here? > Just to explain what I have in mind I made a static HTML bookmarks page: http://www.ecademix.com/JohannesHofmann/tmp/dillo_bm.html Please have a look at the HTML, the style is not really polished as I'm not a designer :) Cheers, Johannes

Feb. 22, 2010