November 2011 - Dillo-dev - lists.mailman3.com

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by obeythepenguin＠gmail.com

Hi Stephen, On 11/29/11, Stephen Paul Weber <singpolyma at singpolyma.net> wrote: > Why are you proposing that the rc file be so complicated? It takes less > than 15 minutes to read through every single available option in the current > dillorc. I'm saying that the rc file is complicated because it is. Most people don't have the time to read through every single available option in an rc file, if they even know where to find it. Remember we're the minority on dillo-dev. We're more technically inclined than the average user; we're used to rc files, and we have enough interest (and time!) to do things the long way. But Joe Sixpack doesn't have time to read through a long text file to find a configuration option; he just needs a button he can click so he can change the setting and get back to his real work. > New users (in my experience) cannot find such buttons. Mostly because they > assume anything their program doesn't already do is "hard". So they call me > and then I have to find the button. > > Not that I'm saying there should not be a button, but I think the idea that > GUI configuration panes are "newb friendly" is a bit of wishful thinking. They aren't perfect, and I'm not claiming they are. But they're certainly an improvement. And if worst comes to worst, it's still easier to tell someone where to find a button to click than it is to explain the intricacies of a configuration file. GUIs are also more convenient, even for experienced users: rather than hunting through an rc file, you can just click a couple buttons, and you don't even have to restart the browser. For instance, I just used mine to change my user agent, since my university now apparently uses UA sniffing to throttle bandwidth. By the way, I have a GUI coded, but as with all my past contributions, it has consistently been silently ignored. But my own users seem quite happy with it -- at least the ones who realize it was my addition and have written to me about it -- so their loss, I suppose. >>"Darken white backgrounds" is better, because it recognizes this implied >>norm. The word "darken" also states a clear action, unlike -- for example >>-- "disallow." A user should never have to stop and think, "What does >>'Disallow white backgrounds' mean?" if there's a more obvious way to word >>it. > > I agree with this. Maybe even change it to a setting for *how much* to > darken. Maybe. "How much" is already determined by the bg_color option, so I see no need for a separate option. Personally, I *don't* think they should change the option name, because it would break backwards compatibility with previous versions. It's important to make things easy for new users, but it's just as important not to alienate existing users. That's why I won't upgrade Microsoft Office or The GIMP; both have redesigned so much I can't figure out how to work the latest versions. But you can still have a "Darken white backgrounds" GUI option while coding it internally as allow_white_bg=NO, as I have done. (My interface also sets bg_color appropriately either to white or tan.) That, I think, is an appropriate compromise, since you're breaking neither the existing code nor the poor user's brain. Cheers, ~Benjamin

Nov. 29, 2011

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by singpolyma＠singpolyma.net

Somebody claiming to be Benjamin Johnson wrote: >Roger wrote: >But imagine you're a new user and not really all that tech-savvy. Say >staring at white webpage backgrounds all day makes your eyes hurt. Would >you rather > > a) spend hours looking through a long configuration file looking for >an option to somehow darken them; or Why are you proposing that the rc file be so complicated? It takes less than 15 minutes to read through every single available option in the current dillorc. > b) click a button that says "Darken white backgrounds"? New users (in my experience) cannot find such buttons. Mostly because they assume anything their program doesn't already do is "hard". So they call me and then I have to find the button. Not that I'm saying there should not be a button, but I think the idea that GUI configuration panes are "newb friendly" is a bit of wishful thinking. >"Darken white backgrounds" is better, because it recognizes this implied >norm. The word "darken" also states a clear action, unlike -- for example >-- "disallow." A user should never have to stop and think, "What does >'Disallow white backgrounds' mean?" if there's a more obvious way to word >it. I agree with this. Maybe even change it to a setting for *how much* to darken. Maybe. -- Stephen Paul Weber, @singpolyma See <http://singpolyma.net> for how I prefer to be contacted edition right joseph

Nov. 29, 2011

Wikipedia pages

by Johannes.Hofmann＠gmx.de

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 09:33:05PM +0100, Georg Potthast wrote: > Johannes, I did not see your post when I did mine since I just get > the posts once a day by email. Therefore I did not refer to your > post but made a general one. > > I now uploaded a snapshot of Firefox displaying the "Dillo" web site > on Wikipedia and three snapshots how Dillo does display it. As you > can see there a great differences. > > Regards > > Georg > > Firefox: > http://www.imgplace.com/viewimg716/298/93dillofirefox.png > > Dillo: > http://www.imgplace.com/viewimg502/3267/50dillo1.png > http://www.imgplace.com/viewimg710/2610/91dillo2.png > http://www.imgplace.com/viewimg525/8632/90dillo3.png Ok, that's all expected. No additional weirdness in your special setup. Regards, Johannes

Nov. 28, 2011

Wikipedia pages

by mailbox＠georgpotthast.de

Johannes, I did not see your post when I did mine since I just get the posts once a day by email. Therefore I did not refer to your post but made a general one. I now uploaded a snapshot of Firefox displaying the "Dillo" web site on Wikipedia and three snapshots how Dillo does display it. As you can see there a great differences. Regards Georg Firefox: http://www.imgplace.com/viewimg716/298/93dillofirefox.png Dillo: http://www.imgplace.com/viewimg502/3267/50dillo1.png http://www.imgplace.com/viewimg710/2610/91dillo2.png http://www.imgplace.com/viewimg525/8632/90dillo3.png

Nov. 27, 2011

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by obeythepenguin＠gmail.com

Roger wrote: > As long as there is still a rc/config file in place for users whom want > to editthe config file by hand using VIM. > Personally, I'd rather use VIM rather then a GUI interface. Using VIM, > editingconfig options much faster. GUI can be much easier or the > lackadaisicalmethod. Of course there is still an rc file; the GUI could even be modified to nicely comment it (though it doesn't right now, to keep the code size down). But imagine you're a new user and not really all that tech-savvy. Say staring at white webpage backgrounds all day makes your eyes hurt. Would you rather a) spend hours looking through a long configuration file looking for an option to somehow darken them; or b) click a button that says "Darken white backgrounds"? If you choose option a) and you're persistent -- remember you're still pretending to be a non-savvy, first-time Dillo user -- you might discover there are two separate settings for this: - allow_white_bg sets whether white backgrounds are allowed, and - bg_color takes the hexadecimal(!) code for your desired background color. (Remember as a non-savvy, first-time user, you don't know hexadecimal.) On the other hand, if you choose option b), you probably saw it here: http://dillo-win32.sourceforge.net/dillo/screenshots.php?closeup=Win95-09.p… That's much simpler, wouldn't you say? As a side note, "Allow white backgrounds" is a bad option name from a user's perspective: since most users automatically assume white backgrounds are the norm, an "Allow white backgrounds" option forces them to think in negatives. "Darken white backgrounds" is better, because it recognizes this implied norm. The word "darken" also states a clear action, unlike -- for example -- "disallow." A user should never have to stop and think, "What does 'Disallow white backgrounds' mean?" if there's a more obvious way to word it. (And yes, I know mainline darkens backgrounds by default, but it makes a convenient illustration. And yes, if you're wondering, little things like this DO make a surprisingly huge difference in usability.) Cheers, ~Benjamin

Nov. 27, 2011

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by rogerx.oss＠gmail.com

> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 10:43:44AM -0500, Benjamin Johnson wrote: >Jorge wrote: > >> ... and average users are afraid of an rc file (*sigh*), so >> maybe it's not that bad having a GUI by default, which power users >> can customize into a CLI with dillorc. >> The other approach is to have everything GUI, which adds size, >> but proves quite handy sometimes (e.g. Tools menu). > >I don't see why anybody should have to edit an rc file *for a graphical >program* in 2011. The Apple Macintosh had a GUI for all its preferences >nearly 30 years ago; do you really want to lag three decades behind the >times? > >(An rc file is fine for a text-mode program, and it's nice to have the >option in others, but in a *graphical program* it should not be the only >way to set preferences. For crying out loud, even Lynx has a user >interface for its preferences!) As long as there is still a rc/config file in place for users whom want to edit the config file by hand using VIM. Personally, I'd rather use VIM rather then a GUI interface. Using VIM, editing config options much faster. GUI can be much easier or the lackadaisical method. -- Roger http://rogerx.freeshell.org/

Nov. 26, 2011

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by obeythepenguin＠gmail.com

Jorge wrote: > ... and average users are afraid of an rc file (*sigh*), so > maybe it's not that bad having a GUI by default, which power users > can customize into a CLI with dillorc. > The other approach is to have everything GUI, which adds size, > but proves quite handy sometimes (e.g. Tools menu). I don't see why anybody should have to edit an rc file *for a graphical program* in 2011. The Apple Macintosh had a GUI for all its preferences nearly 30 years ago; do you really want to lag three decades behind the times? (An rc file is fine for a text-mode program, and it's nice to have the option in others, but in a *graphical program* it should not be the only way to set preferences. For crying out loud, even Lynx has a user interface for its preferences!) Anyway, getting back on topic: My one suggestion would be to combine the search_shortcut and search_url dillorc options, so you could do i.e. search_url=Wikipedia [w] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=%s to set the search shortcut to "w", or search_url=Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=%s to set no shortcut. It might be slightly trickier to parse, but it will make dillorc less cluttered. (Not to mention, it will be easier to integrate with my preferences GUI ;-) Cheers, ~Benjamin

Nov. 26, 2011

mentioning code from elsewhere

by jcid＠dillo.org

On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 06:48:27PM +0000, corvid wrote: > Jorge wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 12:26:10AM +0000, corvid wrote: > > > > > > md5.c says "If you use this software in a product, an acknowledgment > > > in the product documentation would be appreciated but is not required." > > > > > > I think it would be nice to have some mention in README or AUTHORS or > > > somewhere of the various chunks of code that have been integrated into > > > dillo from elsewhere. > > > > +1 > > > > It'd be good to also comment the source file, making clear what > > has been collected with a view to have copyright issues sorted easily. > > Can you spell out an example of what you're thinking? Something simple. e.g. md5.c /* This file contains parts of code taken from project_foo * <project foo tags/ack here> */ ... /* Code from project foo BEGIN */ ... /* Code from project foo END */ -- Cheers Jorge.-

Nov. 25, 2011

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by jcid＠dillo.org

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 09:40:28PM +0100, Johannes Hofmann wrote: > On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 10:52:54AM -0500, Benjamin Johnson wrote: > > corvid wrote: > > > > >Stephen wrote: > > >>Would there be any interest in enabling Dillo to search the default > > >>(read: first in dillorc) search engine when a non-URI is typed into > > >>the location bar? This is especially useful for things like > > >>yubnub.org, which I use heavily. > > > > > >There has been some talk in the past of how it would be nice if > > >one could type various commands into the location bar... > > > > I've been meaning to do that forever, probably along the lines of > > Opera's search shortcuts. (e.g., "g foo" to search Google, "w foo" > > to search Wikipedia, etc.) You get used to that and it really > > spoils you... > > Attached is a quick hack to test this. > I have to say, that it feels quite handy. The dillorc interface > seems not optimal though (suggestions?). Yes, it's quite handy for power users. ... and average users are afraid of an rc file (*sigh*), so maybe it's not that bad having a GUI by default, which power users can customize into a CLI with dillorc. The other approach is to have everything GUI, which adds size, but proves quite handy sometimes (e.g. Tools menu). Now, considering that changing the search engine shortcut is not a frequent operation, and that the CLI search is most appreciatted by power users, I tend to like the approach in the quick patch. YMMV. -- Cheers Jorge.-

Nov. 25, 2011

Wikipedia pages

by mailbox＠georgpotthast.de

There are a lot of Wikipedia pages and many web sites have set up their own wiki. All these pages have the same style. So one change would make thousands of web pages rendered correctly. I suggest that this issue is being solved. Georg

Nov. 25, 2011