August 2010 - Dillo-dev - lists.mailman3.com

Disable caching

by corvid＠lavabit.com

Fredrik wrote: > Hi, > although caching mostly is good, there is serveral occasions when it's > not wanted, specially with todays web2.0-concepts (user generated pages, > etc.). > > Is there a way to disable caching in dillo? Maybe only for some sites? > > I've searched the archives and found a patch doing this, it was however > dated back in 2003. So I'm intrested in som up-to-date information. To the best of my knowledge, - no one is working on it - but a good patch would be gladly accepted. Was there any discussion in the archive on why the 2003 patch wasn't integrated?

Aug. 25, 2010

Disable caching

by iveqy＠iveqy.com

Hi, although caching mostly is good, there is serveral occasions when it's not wanted, specially with todays web2.0-concepts (user generated pages, etc.). Is there a way to disable caching in dillo? Maybe only for some sites? I've searched the archives and found a patch doing this, it was however dated back in 2003. So I'm intrested in som up-to-date information. Regards iveqy

Aug. 25, 2010

html.cc cleanups

by Johannes.Hofmann＠gmx.de

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 06:47:48AM +0100, Jeremy Henty wrote: > > I have started looking at html.cc to think about the "parse quoted > attributes like Firefox" patch, and here are some cleanups in the > meantime. They remove two unused structs and make variable names > consistent between function typedefs and function definitions. (NB: > the third patch depends on the second to apply cleanly, although they > are logically independent.) Committed. Cheers, Johannes

Aug. 25, 2010

html.cc cleanups

by onepoint＠starurchin.org

I have started looking at html.cc to think about the "parse quoted attributes like Firefox" patch, and here are some cleanups in the meantime. They remove two unused structs and make variable names consistent between function typedefs and function definitions. (NB: the third patch depends on the second to apply cleanly, although they are logically independent.) Regards, Jeremy Henty

Aug. 25, 2010

Quoted attribute parsing: summary

by jcid＠dillo.org

Hi Jeremy, It's a relief to see how things have evolved in ten years. I'm happily surprised! In the beginning Mozilla/FF did crazy stuff to make sense out of the most obnoxious tag soup. At that time we only parsed correct content (as from the SPEC) and everybody ended saying "dillo is broken" (despite the nice warning messages :-). Then we ended correcting tag soup as much as we could (but kept the nice warnings, which just a few souls cared for). At that moment we followed the "When in doubt, follow FF" motto which served us well, for the reasons you describe well. Now it's great to see a sensible turn into a better direction. I've considered this patch at least three times during this ten years, and I know FF behaved differently back then. I even committed the patch once, only to see lots of content dissappear from the page, and had to backpedal. Looking at the attached examples with FF is quite telling. (please read the comments below). On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 12:05:30AM +0100, Jeremy Henty wrote: > > Johannes Hofmann wrote: > > > But for me firefox 3.6.3 shows something given the following HTML > > (as does current dillo): > > > > <div title="foo >hello world</div>dillo is great > > That's Firefox's workaround that I described in my original post: if > it sees EOF while parsing a quoted attribute value (ie. if it *never* > sees a matching quote) then it goes back to the opening quote, > discards it, and parses an unquoted attribute value. So it ends up > parsing your example exactly as it would parse > > <div title=foo >hello world</div>dillo is great > > which gives the same result as vanilla Dillo, but for entirely > different reasons. > > But Firefox only does that if it can't find the matching quote at all; > if you feed it > > <div title="foo >hello world</div>dillo is great [... repeat > 'dillo is great' 10000 times ...]</div><div title="bar"> > > then it matches the second double quote with the first and *all* the > text disappears. Which is exactly what HTML5 says it should do. Of > course vanilla Dillo does *better* than Firefox for this example, but > in the real world I think it does *worse*. JavaScript fragments that > confound Dillo's algorithm are far more common than examples such as > the above that it handles well. > > OK, here's a new proposal: when parsing quoted attribute values, let's > copy Firefox! That would: (a) sensibly handle the missing quotes > examples that people have suggested (which my proposed patch does not > do), (b) handle well-formed JavaScript fragments correctly (which > vanilla Dillo does not do), (c) parse well-formed HTML5 as per the > HTML5 specification, (d) conform to Firefox's established practice, > and (e) not break Reddit! That's 5 wins! Agreed. I'll be looking forward for the patch. > It's true that we can't expect people to fix their HTML just because > the HTML5 specification says it's broken. And it's even less likely > that they will fix it just because it breaks in Dillo. But it is very > likely that they will fix it if it breaks in Firefox, so copying > Firefox is a good idea, even if you don't care about the HTML5 > specification. > > And, why should we care about edge cases that vanilla Dillo handles > better than Firefox, since those are precisely the cases that people > will fix to keep their Firefox users happy and that we can therefore > expect *not* to see! There's no point in having an algorithm that in > theory is better than Firefox's, because in practice it's not. > > So, why not just copy Firefox? I can't see any downside. Agreed, and that's what we've done for some time now. In the beginning we followed the SPECS, which caused more harm than good to the project in the long term. FWIW, when HTML was defined as XML, only a few servers provided it with the xhtml MIME type, because it risked not being rendered if incorrect, which didn't happen when served as "tag soup". The W3C and WDG, among others, built nice validators which were not used to correct the state of the web. Business logic prevailed: why waste resources on 1-2% of the market. As you see, we've had to sail with the tides. -- Cheers Jorge.-

Aug. 18, 2010

Quoted attribute parsing: summary

by onepoint＠starurchin.org

Johannes Hofmann wrote: > On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 12:05:30AM +0100, Jeremy Henty wrote: > > > > So, why not just copy Firefox? I can't see any downside. > > I agree. Can you adjust the patch? Then I'd like to wait what Jorge > and corvid say, but I think it's best to mimic Firefox. I'll work on a new patch next week. (I'd like to do it sooner but real life has already alloc()ed the rest of this week.) Thanks for your comments, Jeremy Henty

Aug. 18, 2010

Quoted attribute parsing: summary

by Johannes.Hofmann＠gmx.de

On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 12:05:30AM +0100, Jeremy Henty wrote: > > Johannes Hofmann wrote: > > > But for me firefox 3.6.3 shows something given the following HTML > > (as does current dillo): > > > > <div title="foo >hello world</div>dillo is great > > That's Firefox's workaround that I described in my original post: if > it sees EOF while parsing a quoted attribute value (ie. if it *never* > sees a matching quote) then it goes back to the opening quote, > discards it, and parses an unquoted attribute value. So it ends up > parsing your example exactly as it would parse > > <div title=foo >hello world</div>dillo is great > > which gives the same result as vanilla Dillo, but for entirely > different reasons. > > But Firefox only does that if it can't find the matching quote at all; > if you feed it > > <div title="foo >hello world</div>dillo is great [... repeat > 'dillo is great' 10000 times ...]</div><div title="bar"> > > then it matches the second double quote with the first and *all* the > text disappears. Which is exactly what HTML5 says it should do. Of > course vanilla Dillo does *better* than Firefox for this example, but > in the real world I think it does *worse*. JavaScript fragments that > confound Dillo's algorithm are far more common than examples such as > the above that it handles well. > > OK, here's a new proposal: when parsing quoted attribute values, let's > copy Firefox! That would: (a) sensibly handle the missing quotes > examples that people have suggested (which my proposed patch does not > do), (b) handle well-formed JavaScript fragments correctly (which > vanilla Dillo does not do), (c) parse well-formed HTML5 as per the > HTML5 specification, (d) conform to Firefox's established practice, > and (e) not break Reddit! That's 5 wins! > > It's true that we can't expect people to fix their HTML just because > the HTML5 specification says it's broken. And it's even less likely > that they will fix it just because it breaks in Dillo. But it is very > likely that they will fix it if it breaks in Firefox, so copying > Firefox is a good idea, even if you don't care about the HTML5 > specification. > > And, why should we care about edge cases that vanilla Dillo handles > better than Firefox, since those are precisely the cases that people > will fix to keep their Firefox users happy and that we can therefore > expect *not* to see! There's no point in having an algorithm that in > theory is better than Firefox's, because in practice it's not. > > So, why not just copy Firefox? I can't see any downside. I agree. Can you adjust the patch? Then I'd like to wait what Jorge and corvid say, but I think it's best to mimic Firefox. Regards, Johannes

Aug. 18, 2010

Quoted attribute parsing: summary

by onepoint＠starurchin.org

Johannes Hofmann wrote: > But for me firefox 3.6.3 shows something given the following HTML > (as does current dillo): > > <div title="foo >hello world</div>dillo is great That's Firefox's workaround that I described in my original post: if it sees EOF while parsing a quoted attribute value (ie. if it *never* sees a matching quote) then it goes back to the opening quote, discards it, and parses an unquoted attribute value. So it ends up parsing your example exactly as it would parse <div title=foo >hello world</div>dillo is great which gives the same result as vanilla Dillo, but for entirely different reasons. But Firefox only does that if it can't find the matching quote at all; if you feed it <div title="foo >hello world</div>dillo is great [... repeat 'dillo is great' 10000 times ...]</div><div title="bar"> then it matches the second double quote with the first and *all* the text disappears. Which is exactly what HTML5 says it should do. Of course vanilla Dillo does *better* than Firefox for this example, but in the real world I think it does *worse*. JavaScript fragments that confound Dillo's algorithm are far more common than examples such as the above that it handles well. OK, here's a new proposal: when parsing quoted attribute values, let's copy Firefox! That would: (a) sensibly handle the missing quotes examples that people have suggested (which my proposed patch does not do), (b) handle well-formed JavaScript fragments correctly (which vanilla Dillo does not do), (c) parse well-formed HTML5 as per the HTML5 specification, (d) conform to Firefox's established practice, and (e) not break Reddit! That's 5 wins! It's true that we can't expect people to fix their HTML just because the HTML5 specification says it's broken. And it's even less likely that they will fix it just because it breaks in Dillo. But it is very likely that they will fix it if it breaks in Firefox, so copying Firefox is a good idea, even if you don't care about the HTML5 specification. And, why should we care about edge cases that vanilla Dillo handles better than Firefox, since those are precisely the cases that people will fix to keep their Firefox users happy and that we can therefore expect *not* to see! There's no point in having an algorithm that in theory is better than Firefox's, because in practice it's not. So, why not just copy Firefox? I can't see any downside. Regards, Jeremy Henty

Aug. 18, 2010

Quoted attribute parsing: summary

by Johannes.Hofmann＠gmx.de

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 09:13:11PM +0100, Jeremy Henty wrote: > > Johannes Hofmann wrote: > > > I'd agree that we should not make compromises displaying correct > > HTML when trying to deal with buggy HTML. But are the '>' > > characters in the attribute value in the reddit page actually valid? > > Yes, at least according to the HTML5 specification. Indeed, according > to that specification, the only possible parse errors while parsing a > quoted attribute value are (i) EOF, and (ii) a malformed entity > reference. Anything else is valid! > > I doubt that those '>' characters are valid according to SGML, but the > HTML5 specification explicitly states that HTML5 is not an SGML > instance. No popular client has ever parsed HTML as an SGML instance > and servers have been sending non-SGML-compliant "HTML" since forever. > No matter what earlier HTML specifications may have claimed, the > practical reality is that HTML has never been a kind of SGML. > > > The HTML validators at least warn about them. > > Warning about them is probably a good idea, but that's a different > issue from how to handle them. Whatever Dillo should do, its current > behaviour (a) does not conform to HTML5, and (b) breaks Reddit. > > Of course, there's no reason that Dillo *must* conform to HTML5. > Indeed the HTML5 specification is peppered with the lovely phrase > "willful violation", meaning "yes we know this breaks someone else's > specification but we think it's for the best". So it's fine in > principle for Dillo to say "we're going to violate HTML5 because we > think it's for the best", but I think that this particular behaviour > is a bad idea. It violates the HTML5 standard, it deviates (as far as > I can tell) from standard practice, and it breaks an otherwise > perfectly compliant website. If we can think of a useful way to > willful violate standards so as to better handle broken HTML then > let's do it, but I think Dillo is better off without this particular > workaround because it does more harm than good. > > NB: HTML5 is still a work in progress. These bug reports show some of > the discussion of parsing attribute values: > > Bug 9872: "trigger a conformance error when javascript is included > in href attribute" (rejected because there are legitimate use > cases and even if it's sometimes abused it's not the HTML5 > specification's role to police its use) > > http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9872 > > Bug 9987: "attribute values should be allowed to contain ambiguous > ampersands ..." (still new) > > http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9987 I also played with this some more... If all standard browsers would insist on correctly closed quotes, we could expect web-developers to immediately fix those errors. But for me firefox 3.6.3 shows something given the following HTML (as does current dillo): <div title="foo >hello world</div>dillo is great When we remove the unquoted attribute detection as in your patch, nothing is shown. Are newer firefox versions treating this differently? Regards, Johannes

Aug. 17, 2010

Quoted attribute parsing: summary

by onepoint＠starurchin.org

Johannes Hofmann wrote: > I'd agree that we should not make compromises displaying correct > HTML when trying to deal with buggy HTML. But are the '>' > characters in the attribute value in the reddit page actually valid? Yes, at least according to the HTML5 specification. Indeed, according to that specification, the only possible parse errors while parsing a quoted attribute value are (i) EOF, and (ii) a malformed entity reference. Anything else is valid! I doubt that those '>' characters are valid according to SGML, but the HTML5 specification explicitly states that HTML5 is not an SGML instance. No popular client has ever parsed HTML as an SGML instance and servers have been sending non-SGML-compliant "HTML" since forever. No matter what earlier HTML specifications may have claimed, the practical reality is that HTML has never been a kind of SGML. > The HTML validators at least warn about them. Warning about them is probably a good idea, but that's a different issue from how to handle them. Whatever Dillo should do, its current behaviour (a) does not conform to HTML5, and (b) breaks Reddit. Of course, there's no reason that Dillo *must* conform to HTML5. Indeed the HTML5 specification is peppered with the lovely phrase "willful violation", meaning "yes we know this breaks someone else's specification but we think it's for the best". So it's fine in principle for Dillo to say "we're going to violate HTML5 because we think it's for the best", but I think that this particular behaviour is a bad idea. It violates the HTML5 standard, it deviates (as far as I can tell) from standard practice, and it breaks an otherwise perfectly compliant website. If we can think of a useful way to willful violate standards so as to better handle broken HTML then let's do it, but I think Dillo is better off without this particular workaround because it does more harm than good. NB: HTML5 is still a work in progress. These bug reports show some of the discussion of parsing attribute values: Bug 9872: "trigger a conformance error when javascript is included in href attribute" (rejected because there are legitimate use cases and even if it's sometimes abused it's not the HTML5 specification's role to police its use) http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9872 Bug 9987: "attribute values should be allowed to contain ambiguous ampersands ..." (still new) http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9987 Regards, Jeremy Henty

Aug. 17, 2010