October 2006 - Dillo-dev - lists.mailman3.com

Re: [Dillo-dev] Re: [Fwd: Dillo article precisions]

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi, On Wed, Oct 04, 2006 at 12:23:18PM -0600, Alan Carvalho de Assis wrote: > Hi Jorge, > I hope some company to sponsor Dillo soon. > > BTW, do you have some observation to be add in campaign's document? It has shaped very well! A few observations: * I'd put FLTK2 instead of FLTK FLTK1 is different and Dillo doesn't compile with it. * FLTK2 comes with text antialiasing and UTF8 A couple of features already working in dillo-fltk2! (this may be pointed up there) * For further information, and contact, please point them to my email address (jcid(a)dillo.org) > Do you think to contact the company which contacted you three years ago? Most probably yes. Although they're trying to "open source" their own platform, investing on a side technology is a good diversity safeguard they'll probably want to consider. -- Cheers Jorge.- PS: please don't CC' me. I do read dillo-dev!

Oct. 4, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Re: [Fwd: Dillo article precisions]

by Alan Carvalho de Assis

Hi Jorge, I hope some company to sponsor Dillo soon. BTW, do you have some observation to be add in campaign's document? Do you think to contact the company which contacted you three years ago? Cheers, Alan

Oct. 4, 2006

Re: [Fwd: Dillo article precisions]

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi Henry, On Tue, Oct 03, 2006 at 02:30:33PM -0700, Henry Kingman wrote: > Hi Jorge, > > I tried to update our article with some of the details you sent. > > Thanks, and good luck with the Dillo project! I hope you find funding. Thanks for the corrections. One important precision: the dillo project needs at least two core developers working on it fulltime. Not only me. If there's only one person working full time on it, it's not enough to keep the pace of evolving technologies. That's what I meant when writing: > > The situation is this: there're two core developers. We need at > >least to be both working on Dillo full time (ideally three devs.) > >otherwise the project would lag behind the moving target that > >Internet browsing is. I find this paragraph misleading: "Alternatively, Cid says he will release the FLTK2 port if he finds enough funding to be able to continue working fulltime on the port himeself. He said, "Given the current situation, the best option seems to be to remain closed until funding happens." and it's not true. Please make the correction. -- Cheers Jorge.- > > -Henry > > cc: Rick, executive editor > > -- > Henry Kingman, senior editor > LinuxDevices.com > Ziff Davis Internet > 775 625-4547 > > > > > > > >-------- Original Message -------- > >Subject: Dillo article precisions > >Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 09:40:28 -0400 > >From: Jorge Arellano Cid <jcid(a)dillo.org> > >To: Rick Lehrbaum <rick(a)linuxdevices.com> > >CC: Dillo mailing list <dillo-dev(a)lists.auriga.wearlab.de> > > > >Hi Rick, > > > > It's being a long time since my last article at linuxdevices, > >receive my greetings from Chile! > > > > With regard to the new article: > > > > http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4370323584.html > > > > It caught me by surprise. There was a thread in dillo-dev and > >some users suggested that campaign. I was commenting on gross > >factual mistakes in the wiki when it was announced that an > >article was live at linuxdevices. > > > > It's good to see our users' interest in keeping the project > >alive, so I'll comment the article here so you can correct and > >improve the article: > > > > > >>A project to create an ultra-lightweight web browser for use in > >>embedded devices and other resource-constrained hardware has > >>issued a plea for financial help. The Dillo Project says it needs > >>to find a corporate sponsor in order to add anti-aliased text, > >>CSS, Javascript, and internationalization/localization support. > > > > We've almost finished the port to FLTK2, and it already has > >anti-aliased text. (Dillo doesn't compile with FLTK1) > > > > FLTK2 uses UTF8 and provides antialiasing so it solves the > >problem of using GTK1 (this was one of the reasons for GTK1 to go > >GTK2). > > > > UTF8 also makes it easy to add i18n and l10n without breaking > >things inside the browser. > > > > I point this technical details because unofficial patches have > >been developed for antialiasing, i18n and l10n for GTK1. This is > >a good workaround but not a long term solution. > > > > > >> > >>(Click for larger screenshot of Dillo) > > > > Here you'll find a screenshot of dillo-fltk2: > > > > http://www.dillo.org/test/ph2.png > > > > (it shows antialiasing) > > > > > >> > >>Dillo is a very lightweight (about 350 KB) browser supporting a > >>subset of HTML, CGI, SSL, and cookies. > > > > And plugins. > > + Images (GIF, PNG and JPEG) > > > >> Dillo is not really > >>practical for browsing the modern Internet, due to missing > >>support for frames, CSS, Javascript, and other commonly used > >>standards and protocols. It also lacks support for anti-aliased > >>text, something even Linux desktop users have long taken for > >>granted, and appears to have only rudimentary HTML error handling > >>capabilities. > > > > The HTML error handling has improved a lot (the bug meter can > >atest that), but yes, error handling is not as advanced as with > >Firefox. > > > > Anyway, sometimes there're pages with a few hundred mistakes > >handled gracefully. ;-) > > > > > >>Nonetheless, Dillo is extremely fast and lightweight, using less > >>memory in some cases than popular text-based browsers such as > >>lynx. And, since it supports CGI, it could be useful as a > >>framework for simple device interfaces based on Web standards, > >>such as survey kiosks and other closed, "walled garden" > >>applications. > > > > BTW, the new Dillo with a statically linked FLTK2 is about > >820 Kilobytes. > > > >> > >>Additionally, Dillo is popular with web developers due to > >>excellent HTML error reporting. > > > > :-) > > > > > >> > >>Dillo is expected to gain support for anti-aliased text after its > >>development team completes a port to FLTK (fast light toolkit, > >>aka "fulltick"). > > > > [Already there, see above] > > > >> However, founder Jorge Arellano Cid appears > >>adamant that funding be located prior to release of his > >>nearly-complete FLTK port, according to a "save Dillo" campaign > >>page hosted here. > > > > True. > > > > The situation is this: there're two core developers. We need at > >least to be both working on Dillo full time (ideally three devs.) > >otherwise the project would lag behind the moving target that > >Internet browsing is. > > > > Sebastian (the other core developer) is employed fulltime in > >Germany so he has almost no time to Develop. I don't have funds > >to keep on working fulltime too, so if there're no funds the > >project will loose the main developers and their knowledge. > > > > With regard to releasing. That's what I've done for 6+ years > >with GTK1 and no funding happened ;-). > > > > If there were more interested developers in working with Dillo > >(lets say 6 serious and qualified people) I would consider > >releasing because the project could advance in that case. > > > > Believe it or not I asked in dillo-dev, and there was only one > >answer from a dev that could put 4 hours/week and that had no > >FLTK2 knowledge nor on Dillo internals. > > > > Given the current situation, the best option seems to remain > >closed until funding happens. > > > > > >> > >>Other ongoing Dillo development efforts reportedly include CSS > >>support (said to be "70 percent complete") and JavaScript > >>support, as well as additional internationalization (I18n) and > >>localization (l10n) features. > > > > I reported 70% on CSS. This is on the FLTK2 branch, not from > >external efforts. > > > > The interesting part is that we paved the way for all these in > >the newest branch, so now it's much easier to develop them over > >the new code base than with the old branch. > > > > A rough timeline estimation would be near 2 years to have the > >whole set: antialiasing, CSS, I18n, l10n, Frames, Tabs, SSL and > >good Javascript. > > > > We could make a release in 6 months and thenceforth go on > >incrementally adding features in any desired order (probably this > >would be up to the sponsors' needs). > > > > > >>Additional details about Dillo can be found on Dillo's official > >>funding presentations page. For additional background, be sure to > >>read Cid's 2002 introduction to the browser, here. > >> > >>The Dillo project previously sought funding in February of 2004, > >>and was successful in obtaining a one-time grant through the > >>Linux Fund. > > > > > > Thanks a lot for your time and commitment. > > > > > > > -- > Henry Kingman, senior editor > LinuxDevices.com > Ziff Davis Internet > 775 625-4547 >

Oct. 4, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Dillo article precisions

by R.L. Horn

On Tue, 3 Oct 2006, Jorge Arellano Cid wrote: > Believe it or not I asked in dillo-dev, and there was only one answer > from a dev that could put 4 hours/week and that had no FLTK2 knowledge > nor on Dillo internals. I'd be willing to put some time in on the project. No FLTK2 experience, but it's yet another wretched event-driven-interface widget thing (yawediwt), so how hard can it be?

Oct. 3, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Campaign to help Dillo survive

by Jorge Arellano Cid

On Tue, Oct 03, 2006 at 02:48:50PM +0200, Vincent Thomasset wrote: > On Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:36:30 -0300 > "Alan Carvalho de Assis" <acassis(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi all, > > Hi, > > > the news about Dillo funding was been posted at LinuxDevices. > > > > http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4370323584.html > > > > The article was wrote by LinuxDevices editor, I just send the > > campaign's link. > > > > I don't like the phrase: "Dillo is not really practical for browsing > > the modern Internet..." anyway I hope it don't taint the Dillo's > > image. > > > > Now we needs to send it to some companies. > > I thought you would have waited a bit longer to "release" the document. > I'm not sure it is 100% ready for prime time. Maybe we should look at > it once again before sending it to companies ? Yes, definitevely. > I also think Jorge should agree on the final version (if only to check > if everything is correct and inline with his pov). I sent my corrections to Rick (Editor of linuxdevices), let's look how the article shapes. > Anyway, i found the article to be rather honest overall, and even though > this particular phrase is a bit harsh, it is somewhat true. Yes, it's true. Currently Dillo is most useful at looking for information. (i.e. googling quickly). > > Let's hope this is gonna have some impact. :-) That's the good part of this. It's already going on and it may have some impact. FWIW, some years ago a very big cell phone company tried to hire me and Sebastian (IIRC) to develop the browser for their cellphone. Not Dillo, but a propietary one. Now that years have passed, and that they left the propietary browsing avenue, it may happen. Who knows? -- Cheers Jorge.-

Oct. 3, 2006

Dillo article precisions

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi Rick, It's being a long time since my last article at linuxdevices, receive my greetings from Chile! With regard to the new article: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4370323584.html It caught me by surprise. There was a thread in dillo-dev and some users suggested that campaign. I was commenting on gross factual mistakes in the wiki when it was announced that an article was live at linuxdevices. It's good to see our users' interest in keeping the project alive, so I'll comment the article here so you can correct and improve the article: > A project to create an ultra-lightweight web browser for use in > embedded devices and other resource-constrained hardware has > issued a plea for financial help. The Dillo Project says it needs > to find a corporate sponsor in order to add anti-aliased text, > CSS, Javascript, and internationalization/localization support. We've almost finished the port to FLTK2, and it already has anti-aliased text. (Dillo doesn't compile with FLTK1) FLTK2 uses UTF8 and provides antialiasing so it solves the problem of using GTK1 (this was one of the reasons for GTK1 to go GTK2). UTF8 also makes it easy to add i18n and l10n without breaking things inside the browser. I point this technical details because unofficial patches have been developed for antialiasing, i18n and l10n for GTK1. This is a good workaround but not a long term solution. > > (Click for larger screenshot of Dillo) Here you'll find a screenshot of dillo-fltk2: http://www.dillo.org/test/ph2.png (it shows antialiasing) > > Dillo is a very lightweight (about 350 KB) browser supporting a > subset of HTML, CGI, SSL, and cookies. And plugins. + Images (GIF, PNG and JPEG) > Dillo is not really > practical for browsing the modern Internet, due to missing > support for frames, CSS, Javascript, and other commonly used > standards and protocols. It also lacks support for anti-aliased > text, something even Linux desktop users have long taken for > granted, and appears to have only rudimentary HTML error handling > capabilities. The HTML error handling has improved a lot (the bug meter can atest that), but yes, error handling is not as advanced as with Firefox. Anyway, sometimes there're pages with a few hundred mistakes handled gracefully. ;-) > Nonetheless, Dillo is extremely fast and lightweight, using less > memory in some cases than popular text-based browsers such as > lynx. And, since it supports CGI, it could be useful as a > framework for simple device interfaces based on Web standards, > such as survey kiosks and other closed, "walled garden" > applications. BTW, the new Dillo with a statically linked FLTK2 is about 820 Kilobytes. > > Additionally, Dillo is popular with web developers due to > excellent HTML error reporting. :-) > > Dillo is expected to gain support for anti-aliased text after its > development team completes a port to FLTK (fast light toolkit, > aka "fulltick"). [Already there, see above] > However, founder Jorge Arellano Cid appears > adamant that funding be located prior to release of his > nearly-complete FLTK port, according to a "save Dillo" campaign > page hosted here. True. The situation is this: there're two core developers. We need at least to be both working on Dillo full time (ideally three devs.) otherwise the project would lag behind the moving target that Internet browsing is. Sebastian (the other core developer) is employed fulltime in Germany so he has almost no time to Develop. I don't have funds to keep on working fulltime too, so if there're no funds the project will loose the main developers and their knowledge. With regard to releasing. That's what I've done for 6+ years with GTK1 and no funding happened ;-). If there were more interested developers in working with Dillo (lets say 6 serious and qualified people) I would consider releasing because the project could advance in that case. Believe it or not I asked in dillo-dev, and there was only one answer from a dev that could put 4 hours/week and that had no FLTK2 knowledge nor on Dillo internals. Given the current situation, the best option seems to remain closed until funding happens. > > Other ongoing Dillo development efforts reportedly include CSS > support (said to be "70 percent complete") and JavaScript > support, as well as additional internationalization (I18n) and > localization (l10n) features. I reported 70% on CSS. This is on the FLTK2 branch, not from external efforts. The interesting part is that we paved the way for all these in the newest branch, so now it's much easier to develop them over the new code base than with the old branch. A rough timeline estimation would be near 2 years to have the whole set: antialiasing, CSS, I18n, l10n, Frames, Tabs, SSL and good Javascript. We could make a release in 6 months and thenceforth go on incrementally adding features in any desired order (probably this would be up to the sponsors' needs). > Additional details about Dillo can be found on Dillo's official > funding presentations page. For additional background, be sure to > read Cid's 2002 introduction to the browser, here. > > The Dillo project previously sought funding in February of 2004, > and was successful in obtaining a one-time grant through the > Linux Fund. Thanks a lot for your time and commitment. -- Cheers Jorge.-

Oct. 3, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Campaign to help Dillo survive

by Vincent Thomasset

On Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:36:30 -0300 "Alan Carvalho de Assis" <acassis(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi all, Hi, > the news about Dillo funding was been posted at LinuxDevices. > > http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4370323584.html > > The article was wrote by LinuxDevices editor, I just send the > campaign's link. > > I don't like the phrase: "Dillo is not really practical for browsing > the modern Internet..." anyway I hope it don't taint the Dillo's > image. > > Now we needs to send it to some companies. I thought you would have waited a bit longer to "release" the document. I'm not sure it is 100% ready for prime time. Maybe we should look at it once again before sending it to companies ? I also think Jorge should agree on the final version (if only to check if everything is correct and inline with his pov). Anyway, i found the article to be rather honest overall, and even though this particular phrase is a bit harsh, it is somewhat true. Let's hope this is gonna have some impact. :-) Cheers, Vincent

Oct. 3, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Campaign to help Dillo survive

by Alan Carvalho de Assis

Hi all, the news about Dillo funding was been posted at LinuxDevices. http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4370323584.html The article was wrote by LinuxDevices editor, I just send the campaign's link. I don't like the phrase: "Dillo is not really practical for browsing the modern Internet..." anyway I hope it don't taint the Dillo's image. Now we needs to send it to some companies. Cheers, Alan On 10/2/06, Vincent Thomasset <vincent.thomasset(a)skynet.be> wrote: > On Mon, 2 Oct 2006 10:00:46 -0300 > "Alan Carvalho de Assis" <acassis(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi all, > > Hi Allan, > > > the campaign's document is very good. Very informative. > > Taking shape indeed. :) > > I did some more modifs and would like to propose 2 things. > > (1) to remove the "Dillo is agonizing" part (too dramatic) by splitting > it, moving the first sentence in the "status" part and the rest of the > paragraph in the "why help dillo ?" part. > > (2) and contrary to my previous opinion that it could be useful to add > what is pending and coming, ie the direction(s) of development, because > these question is to be asked anyway. Hope the document does not get > too heavy though... > > BTW, i can do the first one but the second one is beyond my scope. ;) > > Cheers, > Vincent > > _______________________________________________ > Dillo-dev mailing list > Dillo-dev(a)dillo.org > http://lists.auriga.wearlab.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dillo-dev > -- ------------------------------------------------------------ | Alan Carvalho de Assis | ------------------------------------------------------------ -- Não importa o que os outros irão pensar, A cura para a infelicidade é a felicidade

Oct. 3, 2006

[jcid@dillo.org: Re: [Dillo-dev] Campaign to help Dillo survive]

by Jorge Arellano Cid

-- Cheers Jorge.-

Oct. 2, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Dillo FLTK CVS

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi there, I liked this email because it reminded me of a set of things, that I'd like to share. On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 05:18:12PM -0600, Alan Carvalho de Assis wrote: > Hi Michal, > > On 9/29/06, Michal Nowak <xnowak01(a)stud.fit.vutbr.cz> wrote: > >Hi Alan, > > > >well I am not sure how you could do it i(=desktop@floppy) but I think > >Dillo will be quite large with staticaly linked with fltk2. > > > Do you know how large is it? > > >May I ask you, how many space have you got on the floppy? Or you mean > >"the floppy" (1.4 MiB)? It would be great proof of concept... > > Well, I am formatting it at 1.74 MB, and I will use compressed fs > (squashfs). > I think it will get ~ 3MB. > > Kernel: ~ 600KB (I am using kernel-tiny patch) > Kdrive: ~ 600KB (I am using uClibc) > Dillo-fltk: < 1.8 MB jcid@infinity:~/C/Dillo/proto/dillo-f15/src$ v dillo-fltk -rwxr-xr-x 1 jcid users 826768 Oct 2 12:33 dillo-fltk* This is 820KB. It fits! :-) (It has a statically linked FLTK2) > > >The troubles with funds... it's quite longstanding problem. Dillo neads > >fulltime dev or two. There are companies which has Dillo build in their > >products and sold them, well, that's OK, but thay give nothing back... > >just sitting and waiting for Jorge. Comunity of Dillo is rather small, > >people from developed countrie have fast computers -> lack of hunger for > >such think Dillo is. Probably nobody will pay for releasing "another > >browser", coz hey have ff, opera, konq etc. > > Dillo will be the best option for cheap linux cell phones. Then when > these cell phone companies realise it is a best option it will invest. > To do it we need emphasize Dillo qualities: the faster browser ever, > the smallest footprint, etc. A long time ago I thought that if I was able to build a small and efficient browser like Dillo I could _demonstrate_ my point that internet access can be made much cheaper, and that the Hardware, Software and Bandwidth requirements were inflated to exploit the market in a more profitable point. I was right! I also thought that once this was demonstrated, it was going to be easy to get support from the government, or technology funds, or digital divide funds. But, I was wrong here, and I learnt it the hard way. The problem was not the lack of the technology! The problem was the huge economical interests, corruption and greed. Those participating in this thread, please read this interview I gave in 2002. It explains the underlying topics very well: http://www.dillo.org/interview.html > >But you can help Dillo with submitting code, if ou want to :). > > Doing a small linux distro I will help to demonstre as powerful dillo > is. And it will demonstre too the small dillo footprint. This is demonstrated already (of course it would make a beautiful showcase). The bottom line is: What we need to find is a source of funds that's above the second barrier, stated above. -- Cheers Jorge.-

Oct. 2, 2006