September 2003 - Dillo-dev - lists.mailman3.com

Re: [Dillo-dev] could not find font

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi, > > Hi, I am using dillo for a project here at the univ. In the course of it I > have had to make some modifications to the dillo source so as to be able > to talk with some `tuple space` server. They don't affect the working of > dillo and are abstracted out. Also I need to get the modified dillo on my > ipaq H3670 for use in the project demo. I did the source changes and > everything seems just great. I compiled it for arm using handhelds.org > public clusters and also managed to get it onto my IPAQ. So far so good. > > However the dillo executable doesnt run and bails out saying: > ---- > ** WARNING **: Can't load any ISO8859-1 font!?! :( > ** ERROR **: Could not find any font. aborting... Aborted > ---- This means all the attempts in Dw_style_font_realize() failed. > The dw_style.c seems to look for a font and I would think it fails if it > doesnt find any. That's it. > But what I dont understand is the vanilla gpe > distribution given by the familiar folks also includes dillo and that > works fine on the SAME ipaq. So somehow that dillo executable knows how to > find the fonts? No. It may be that they don't try with the same fontnames! Make sure both provide the exactly the same Dw_style_font_realize() font. If it's the same, check you're using the same dillorc for both. If the problem still persists, using both on the same machine under the same username, using the same dillorc, I'm puzzled! > I am guessing I need to pass a font dir or something > related to x/xfs here? It also works great if I compile it on a desktop > linux box. I am wondering why it cannot find the fonts on the ipaq only. > > Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get this working? Thanks, As above. Cheers Jorge.-

Sept. 4, 2003

Re: [Dillo-dev] Something to think about: free vs. proprietary OSes

by Phil Pennock

On 2003-09-04 at 00:11 -0700, Kelson Vibber wrote: > Where do we draw the line... and why? Compatibility? Ideology? Suggestion: the point where conditional code compilation is being scattered throughout the code. That way lies a maintenance nightmare. The OpenSSH people have to do this, because every OS is a bit different in how the login process is managed, and even there the main development is done in a "clean" branch, for OpenSSH, and the Portable stuff is maintained separately. For a more historical example, look at wu-ftpd. If differences can be cleanly abstracted, so that people don't need to worry about the differences, then it's probably fine. But if someone's devoting their own personal time to a project, finding one OS which forces #ifdefs everywhere, in every file, just to compile suggests that it's not clean and not sufficiently in line. A grep for "ifdef" in the Dillo .c files shows remarkably little in that regard (most of the ones I see are the frames+tab patch's careful segregation. The most common ifdef is for VERBOSE and after that EXTENDED_COLOR, and those tend to be confined to small spaces. For an example of abstraction of OS differences done right, I like Exim (the Mail Transport Agent). Jorge: I've been at a conference and now am on a different desktop, so am not easily able to test the alternate fix for FreeBSD and the IO errors -- since Andreas reports that things work fine for him now, I'll take it on faith that the problem has been resolved -- thanks for the prompt response! (I got forced onto a new box and made a policy decision to go GTK2 only; I had a brief look at porting to GTK2 and got more stuff compiling, but part way through realised that I'd messed up badly so dumped that. I won't have time to look at this again for a while -- sorry) -- 2001: Blogging invented. Promises to change the way people bore strangers with banal anecdotes about their pets. <http://www.thelemon.net/issues/timeline.php>

Sept. 4, 2003

Something to think about: free vs. proprietary OSes

by Kelson Vibber

<flamebait> So if Dillo is about 100% free software, including the OS it runs on, does that mean we should reject any patches that help Dillo run on Solaris, IRIX, AIX, HP-UX, Mac OS X and so on? If something breaks compatibility with Cygwin, should we let it slide because Cygwin only runs on Windows? What's next, dropping support for SuSE because it's less free than Debian? Red Hat because they call it "Linux" instead of "GNU/Linux?" </flamebait> Where do we draw the line... and why? Compatibility? Ideology? If someone came up with a way to get a working prototype on Mac OS classic, without any effort on your part, would you reject their contribution because the OS is proprietary? If yes, what makes Solaris different? If no, what makes Windows different? A consensus on this issue would be useful, especially the next time someone expresses interest in using Dillo on a nonconventional platform. -- Kelson Vibber www.hyperborea.org

Sept. 4, 2003

could not find font

by Vikram

Hi, I am using dillo for a project here at the univ. In the course of it I have had to make some modifications to the dillo source so as to be able to talk with some `tuple space` server. They don't affect the working of dillo and are abstracted out. Also I need to get the modified dillo on my ipaq H3670 for use in the project demo. I did the source changes and everything seems just great. I compiled it for arm using handhelds.org public clusters and also managed to get it onto my IPAQ. So far so good. However the dillo executable doesnt run and bails out saying: ---- ** WARNING **: Can't load any ISO8859-1 font!?! :( ** ERROR **: Could not find any font. aborting... Aborted ---- The dw_style.c seems to look for a font and I would think it fails if it doesnt find any. But what I dont understand is the vanilla gpe distribution given by the familiar folks also includes dillo and that works fine on the SAME ipaq. So somehow that dillo executable knows how to find the fonts? I am guessing I need to pass a font dir or something related to x/xfs here? It also works great if I compile it on a desktop linux box. I am wondering why it cannot find the fonts on the ipaq only. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get this working? Thanks, Vikram

Sept. 4, 2003

Re: [Dillo-dev] Dillo on Windows fork

by Eric GAUDET

-- En reponse de "Re: [Dillo-dev] Dillo on Windows fork" de Robin Rowe, le 04-Sep-2003 : > Jorge, > > That you have so many derogatory names for Windows doesn't make a Windows > developer feel welcome. > Many, many, many people came to this list, asking question, proposing patches, etc. All of them were welcome and answered nicely. But you're in a Free Software community: if you can't stand the heat, if you can't keep a low profile, scoot. Why do you feel so personal about windows anyway? > Either a native Windows port is welcome (that means no cygwin in case you > don't understand), you want any patches I create for building Dillo as a > Microsoft Visual C++ project, want to work together, and are happy to > answer what technical points you can regardless of operating system I > use -- or you don't. > I already explained why, personally, I did not want a windows port integrated in Dillo. A fork is ok, though. There's probably way too much changes between Posix and Windows for the two projects to live together anyway. > I am willing to admit that I have no idea what you are talking about in > general. Your previous email, the one from last week that did not attempt > to answer my technical questions about Dillo as it is implemented now, > told me that "if you want to make dillo run on M$ Windoze natively, > you're on your own", and pointed me for the reason to an article whose Dillo's web site has plenty of references about why Jorge (and Dillo's developers agree, I think) think Free Software is what he wnats to develop for. Not any open source project: Free Software. > only reference to Windows is a rant against "Micro$oft (windoze)", > could have led me to the wrong conclusion. All your talk today about > having no Windows users currently, cygwin, posix, articles, attacks, > FUD, false assertions, lies, the dark side (as you call running Dillo > on Windows) and so forth only confuses things further. > Now you're the one being offensive here. > What do you really want me to do? > If you have technical question, ask them, you'll be answered. Or not. Anyway: TAKE THIS DISCUSSION OFF THE LIST! This is a development list, not a fighting list between you and Jorge. This list has a long history of moderation and politeness, and I like it like that. It was never about Jorge, anyway. Didn't you get it? Jorge just happens to be the maintainer and lead developer of Dillo's current main tree. And he's pretty good at it too. But if he's not good enough and somebody feels like forking, developers will go with the most active and appealing project. You don't need Jorge or any of us to tell you what to do. But since you need clarification, here goes: - if you have any technical question, ask them in the list. Politely. - I don't think Jorge will ever consider merging your patches, or any patch about a Windows port. - nobody can or will ever want to prevent you to fork or use Dillo's code in any way you want, provided it's compatible with the GPL. Please, please, nobody answers this message (or this thread in the list). You can answer to me personally if you want to, but I think everything's clear now. Good luck with your project. Best, EG

Sept. 4, 2003

Re: [Dillo-dev] Dillo on Windows fork

by Robin Rowe

Jorge, That you have so many derogatory names for Windows doesn't make a Windows developer feel welcome. You went to a lot of trouble to mince point by point through my "attacks, FUD, and all the false assertions", but it was unnecessary. If it is what you feel, all you need say is that you welcome a native Windows port, that it was just a big misunderstanding. Either a native Windows port is welcome (that means no cygwin in case you don't understand), you want any patches I create for building Dillo as a Microsoft Visual C++ project, want to work together, and are happy to answer what technical points you can regardless of operating system I use -- or you don't. I am willing to admit that I have no idea what you are talking about in general. Your previous email, the one from last week that did not attempt to answer my technical questions about Dillo as it is implemented now, told me that "if you want to make dillo run on M$ Windoze natively, you're on your own", and pointed me for the reason to an article whose only reference to Windows is a rant against "Micro$oft (windoze)", could have led me to the wrong conclusion. All your talk today about having no Windows users currently, cygwin, posix, articles, attacks, FUD, false assertions, lies, the dark side (as you call running Dillo on Windows) and so forth only confuses things further. What do you really want me to do? Cheers, Robin --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robin.Rowe(a)MovieEditor.com Hollywood, California www.CinePaint.org Free motion picture and still image editing software

Sept. 4, 2003

Re: [Dillo-dev] Dillo on Windows fork

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi there, Unfortunately, I find myself compelled to answer to Mr. Robin Rowe's attacks, FUD, and all the false assertions he did about myself. Although I knew very few people would take the time to read the interview and then compare it to what Mr. Rowe says I said, I expected, from the long time you know me on this list, not to beleive his attacks without a hesitation. I'll make quotes and comment them. Please make your own comparisons and decide. Of course, you can browse the mailing list archives for the full threads: http://news.gmane.org/thread.php?group=gmane.comp.web.dillo.devel (search for September 2003) -- I'm quoting my missing emails, in full, here. Once I read that the only way to stop FUD was to rebate it point by point, so here I go: > Now, if you want to make dillo run on M$ Windoze natively, > you're on your own. Some of the reasons may be found in the > interview page: > > http://www.dillo.org/interview.html > > Thanks for the link. Very interesting. You sound quite hostile to Windows > users as a matter of personal politics. Please go to the interview and read it. If not at least search for these keywords: "windo" and "user". > May I ask, what does a policy of denying Dillo technical support to Windows > users accomplish? Unless using CYGWIN we have no Windows users because there's not a working native port yet. How can I be blamed for not supporting non-existent users? > Do you intend to prevent people from using software they > have already paid for anyway? _Ridiculous_. How can I prevent all (or some) of the windows users using their OS of choice. Mr. Rowe puts me as if I was trying to actively deny these people the right to use their SW. How? Turning off theiy machines from my house? Has anyone ever read such an statement from me in this mailing list? I read it again and again and can't understand why I'm bashed this way. > Should I throw away my copy of Windows 2000 to > accommodate your political views? Please, please, read the interview and search for such an statement. Incredible, Mr. Rowe keeps inventing implicit assertions, and then charging them on me. I've never said that. You can chose whatever OS you want. I'm only the project leader of a Free-SW project that aims for POSIX compliance. I even suggested him to try the recipe Kelson prepared about running dillo on Windows with CIGWIN. (http://www.hyperborea.org/software/dillo/cygwin.html) > To what point? I don't know, it was Mr. Rowe who invented this false accusation and blamed me for it. > You can't think it could > hurt Microsoft. And he suggests what I think too! Amazing. > You must know they aren't going to give me a refund. Please search for the keyword "refund" in the interview. You will not find it. It is just another invention that I'm accused for by Mr. Rowe. > If you change your mind and decide to answer my questions about what a few > troublesome pieces of Dillo code are intended to do that would be nice. Gentle words after the bashing. (this can confuse the careless reader, and make him think he's going through valid statements.) > But, if you prefer not to it is no big deal. Interesting. Then why did he take the time to prepare a set of false statements to attack me? > I've ported much more difficult > programs without help. To some extent, this is a compliment (I believe in Raph Levien's words that "SW design is a constant struggle against complexity"), but frankly I think his intention wasn't that. ...and as if this wasn't material enough, here are some other quotes from the next emails he sent: > In response to my request for technical information about Dillo to make it > easier for me to debug the Windows port, Jorge sent me an email off-list > last week in which he told me, "you're on your own" and directed me to > his interview at http://www.dillo.org/interview.html for the reason why. > What Jorge says there is he is opposed to supporting Windows users as a > matter of personal politics. Another lie! He says: "Jorge says there is he is opposed to supporting Windows users as a matter of personal politics". Here's my email: <q> On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Robin Rowe wrote: > Jorge, > > I have Dillo built now as a native Windows VC++ 6 project and am debugging > it. Seems to be my unstable 1.14 version of GTK for Windows that is causing > Dillo to hang on load. By the way, I'm the new GTK1 for Windows maintainer. > Tor and GIMP for Windows are moving to GTK2, but CinePaint is staying with > GTK1. > > Can we talk about Dillo design portability a bit? Dillo is designed to run on POSIX compatible systems. If CYGWIN provides that, let it be (as stated in Kelson's doc). Now, if you want to make dillo run on M$ Windoze natively, you're on your own. Some of the reasons may be found in the interview page: http://www.dillo.org/interview.html (search for "windows", is quite a large text). Cheers Jorge.- </q> ------------------------------------- and here's my previous answer to him: ------------------------------------- <q> On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Robin Rowe wrote: > Hi. I'm the project leader for CinePaint, an open source paint program used > mainly by the motion picture industry. Our code was branched from GIMP in > 1998. Hi! Yes, I knew about your project by the time we were applying to LinuxFund... > > How would the Dillo project feel about Dillo being embedded in another > application as a help browser? Very good. In fact it has been done in the past with the Sylpheed-claws email client: it embeds dillo for secure HTML mail viewing. In fact we're working in a remote control plugin for dillo to allow better support for this kind of functionality. Currently applications can launch Dillo and let the user navigate the help docs without problems. Now, if the app. wants to provide context sensitive help, it needs to end dillo and launch another instance to make it display the required page (quite fast, but not optimal), and here's where we're improving it. > We're looking for a new help system browser and considering Dillo. We are > impressed how compact your implementation is. We only need a limited set of > HTML features: links, images, tables, bullet lists, number lists, headings, > ordinary text, bold, and italic. In these features we need the browser to be > absolutely stable. Any issues there? None! You'll hardly find a browser that's more stable. And for any issue that may arise, you can email us back for support. > > We support all platforms, including Windows. One of the first things I would > intend to do is port Dillo to Windows. I saw in your archives that you had > made some effort in that direction, but it seemed to peter out. What are the > problems? If you need dillo to run on the dark side, take a look at: http://www.hyperborea.org/software/dillo/cygwin.html Cheers Jorge.- </q> ----------- Now, please excuse me if I don't want to answer any other email from Mr. Robin Rowe. I refuse to answer to Mr. Rowe because he has not the minimal manners to communicate politely and objectively (at least with me), and he attacks me upon false statements. ----------- Now, onto the technical reasons why I decided to aim dillo for POSIX and not for Windows (the use of advanced features of POSIX is a fact documented in a paper I wrote the year 2000). From Dillo project objectives perspective: The project objectives are: * The democratization of Internet information access. * Security and personal privacy. * High software efficiency. 1.- The democratization of Internet information access. Windows requires a modern machine to run (at least supported versions of it), and the pay of a licence fee. People with such a HW/SW configuration already have the means to afford their internet access. Now considering what happened to Netscape when trying to run on Windiws platforms it was quite clear there was no much future on that line. 2.- Security and personal privacy. Definitively a hard conflict with the windows platforms. A lot has been written about this topic, but let me suggest: http://www.hevanet.com/peace/microsoft.htm 3.- High software efficiency. A carefully crafted browser, with every single bit of speed we could think of, running over a bloated monster that makes modern computers feel slow? Now, as a tiny client for help documents, it may be, but Explorer is already loaded so... If someone someday makes dillo run on windows, I'll ask him to warn the users that they don't have the Security and personal privacy the original Dillo strives for (one of the best ways to spy any browser is to do in the internal firewall. You have all the HTTP traffic, the user IDs, etc.) Judge yourselves, I've had enough of it. Sincerely Jorge.-

Sept. 4, 2003

Re: [Dillo-dev] Dillo on Windows fork

by Melvin Hadasht

[Please, let's keep this discussion on the ML] Hi, > > If someone wants to port Dillo to Windows, he > > can look at how Sylpheed-Claws I/O infrastructure was ported to Windows. > > Sylpheed-Claws does not use pthreads, but it forks... > > Windows doesn't fork. That can be emulated with spawn. Threads is a better > approach. I don't know how he did that, but I remember those two parts (IO and forking) were the first things that needed to be ported to Windows. My message wasn't aimed at discussing technical points (I never programmed in Windows), but rather to point to some light-weight gtk 1.2 project that was already successfully ported to Windows, so less experienced developers could take a look on it. > > I think, if someone does not already have the experience of > > porting to Windows.... > > I ported CinePaint to Windows, the largest GTK project ever ported aside > from GIMP. Then disregard my email, it will not help you :). I thought someone was in need of technical help for porting to Windows, so I posted some hints in the case where the poster was not so experienced. > >...looking at Claws versions can be very helpful, as our port > > is done by a very knowledgeable guy. > > Cool, who was that? Just google for Sylpheed-Claws & win32 :) -- Melvin Hadasht

Sept. 4, 2003

Re: [Dillo-dev] Dillo on Windows fork

by Robin Rowe

Kelson, > From where I'm sitting, it looks like you've been *very* welcome here, > with one exception. > > Have people been sending you hate mail off-list? Or had you made up your > mind before you posted your question? Nobody has expressed any hostility. Some are discriminatory, but as someone pointed out the GPL doesn't say you can't discriminate against Windows users. Once the Dillo project leader says Windows is unwanted here there is no reasonable choice for me as the Windows port developer but to go elsewhere. I'm trying to do as the project leader says he wishes. Are you saying Jorge isn't the project leader? That I shouldn't respect his wishes? What I wanted to do was donate the Windows port. I had no idea that would be made difficult. Cheers, Robin --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robin.Rowe(a)MovieEditor.com Hollywood, California www.CinePaint.org Free motion picture and still image editing software

Sept. 3, 2003

Re: [Dillo-dev] Dillo on Windows fork

by Kelson Vibber

At 02:06 PM 9/3/2003, Robin Rowe wrote: >It seems clear that I must take Dillo for Windows elsewhere, that opinions >are too firmly set for Windows users to feel welcome here soon. OK... I've seen four replies to your question (not counting Jorge's). Three of them basically say, "Yes, let's port to Windows!" One simply states that nothing forces Jorge to support it and offers no opinion on porting one way or the other. Additionally, several people replied to your earlier technical questions to the list, and several people expressed interest in your progress. From where I'm sitting, it looks like you've been *very* welcome here, with one exception. Have people been sending you hate mail off-list? Or had you made up your mind before you posted your question? Kelson Vibber www.hyperborea.org

Sept. 3, 2003