October 2003 - Dillo-dev - lists.mailman3.com

Re: [Dillo-dev] [PATCH] Version 2 of keyboard navigation, solves problem with Tab

by Frank de Lange

Jorge Arellano Cid wrote: > For instance: placing the nav cursor in the [gtk_type_new] link >inside the "struct GtkTypeObject" section and pressing DOWN, >brings the cursor to the leftmost [GtkType] under gtk_type_unique >but it is possible to get to the leftmost [GtkType] too! That is >focusing the leftmost one, then going UP then DOWN again. > You mean left- and right-most link? As in... A . . B . . C Going from A sometimes lands you in B, sometimes in C, depending where you came from? If so, that is by design. The code only modifies the 'x' cursor coordinate when the link is explicitly moved to the left or right, NOT when it is moved up or down. The reason for this is best explained in yet another ASCII-graphic: A . . . B . C . . . D . E . F . . . G . H . I When moving focus DOWN from A, it will land in B (because that is the next LOWER link closest to A). Moving it down again lands it in C (NOT E), as that is the next LOWER link closest to the original x-coordinate. If you now were to move focus to link E (by moving it to the right), it would update the 'x' cursor coordinate, so the next move DOWN after that would end up on H. The cursor is ALWAYS set to the current link's 'y' coordinate. In case focus is moved out of context (eg when it is set by the search feature) it should be set to the current link's 'x' coordinate as well. That's the theory, which is followed in the code - mostly. It might be that there are some cases where context is retained while it should be discarded. Combined with the unknown-location-problems this can lead to unexpected behaviour. > The gain I see with this scheme is that you can scroll down a >page, and when you find an interesting link "call" the keyboard >navigation cursor and quickly select the link. Otherwise you're >carried to the top of the page (or to wherever the cursor was >left) and will have to start finding the scrolled region where >the to-be-clicked link is. > Ah, that's what you mean. Yes, this will be implemented in the next version as well. Cheers//Frank -- WWWWW ________________________ ## o o\ / Frank de Lange \ }# \| / +46-734352015 \ \ `--| _/ <Hacker for Hire> \ `---' \ +31-640037120 / \ frank(a)unternet.org / `------------------------' [ "Omnis enim res, quae dando non deficit, dum habetur et non datur, nondum habetur, quomodo habenda est." ]

Oct. 25, 2003

Re: [Dillo-dev] [PATCH] Version 2 of keyboard navigation, solves problem with Tab

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Frank, Sebastian, List :) > > This is a good idea. Having the spaces inside links highlighted > >and the whole kbd. nav. current link in a distinctive pattern or > >color > > > > > I have used Sebastian's patch for a while now, let my GF try it, and we > are unanimous: looks much nicer ('more professional'), but is less > useable (hard to see where focus is). The next version of the patch will > use both color and a frame for focus highlight. Good! > > > One thing I noticed between kbd1 and kbd2 is that sometimes the > >latter makes odd jumps when using UP and DOWN keys. For instance > >with "gtk-types.html" page from GTK+'s manual. > > > > > What problem are you referring to? I tried that page (both for the > GTK+-1.2 and GTK+-2.2 manuals), and it reacted the way I would expect it > to (down goes down a link, up takes focus one link up). Completely > predictable and consistent. Which does not surprise me, as this is a > relatively 'easy' page with many links to choose from. Yesterday it took me some time to produce an odd behaviour. I didn't know then that user link navigation influenced how links are passed through, so I assumed a bug. You've already noticed some other glitches (as going from the first link to the one to the right when pressing DOWN), but yesterday (and again today) I managed to get into a situation where going from one link down to another and up again (using UP/DOWN), skipped several links placed in between. Unfortunately I don't know how to reproduce it... One interesting thing that may hint how to reproduce this is that it is possible to change (program to some extent) which link is selected for an up or down jump. i.e. it is not always the same. For instance: placing the nav cursor in the [gtk_type_new] link inside the "struct GtkTypeObject" section and pressing DOWN, brings the cursor to the leftmost [GtkType] under gtk_type_unique but it is possible to get to the leftmost [GtkType] too! That is focusing the leftmost one, then going UP then DOWN again. Maybe all these little glitches will be wiped out with the new link selection algorithm, I don't know... > > The places where I see inconsistent behaviour are mostly: > > - going UP in a page with few links sometimes takes me DOWN instead... > This is caused by the fact that links which have not yet been displayed > have their location set to '0,0'. The 'UP' code tries to find a link > with a lower y-coordinate than the current cursor. The solution is > probably to give such 'unknown' links a recognizable location (-1,-1) > and ignore them for positional navigation. > - sometimes a link is highlit when I did not ask for it (eg. first page > of Google search results). Have to look in to this. > - sometimes focus cycles to the top of the document when pressing > 'DOWN' on the last link on the page. This should not happen. Cause > probably the same as above. > - it is currently not possible to use Tab to focus the next frame in a > frameset. This is clearly a bug... > > > The "directional" navigation of links feels very handy and > >intuitive. One thing that can be improved is when the current > >link is outside the screen not to jump to it upon a key press but > >to find the most appropriate one within the displayed area. This > >would allow for a smooth keyboard navigation by integrating with > >the scrolling keys. > > > > > Ah, but what about those cases where there are no links inside the > displayed area? This happens quite often, eg. the 'next/prev' links on > the top and bottom of a document generated with LaTeX2html (and such). > This is actually what made me notice the problem in the first place. If there are no links inside the displayed area, jump to next one then! (just as it is now). The gain I see with this scheme is that you can scroll down a page, and when you find an interesting link "call" the keyboard navigation cursor and quickly select the link. Otherwise you're carried to the top of the page (or to wherever the cursor was left) and will have to start finding the scrolled region where the to-be-clicked link is. > I think that in these cases, 'sequential' focus (just take the next link > from the document source) is the best compromise between useability and > performance. To really solve this problem, the document would have to be > pre-rendered once to learn the location of all links. That is to big a > sacrifice for to little gain I think. [LIST: what do you think?] Yes, in case it is too complex to find whether a link is currently upon display (and also one that is), it may be not worth. Maybe Sebastian knows of a not too costly way. Sebastian? Cheers Jorge.-

Oct. 25, 2003

Re: [Dillo-dev] Thanks

by Frank de Lange

Maurice McCarthy wrote: >The invitation is nice but I don't think I have the skill. Where I work >if something is not functioning then you > >a) hit it with a scaffold pole >b) if its too small, hit it with a shifter (adjustable spanner) >c) take it apart and clean it >d) if its electrical push every button in sight >e) when you know you've really broken it then >f) call the maintenance dept. > > Good! Do this to my tab/frame and keyboard_navigatino patches and tell me what you've managed to break! I'll release new versions of the patches RSN (tm) which should apply to current CVS. Cheers//Frank -- WWWWW ________________________ ## o o\ / Frank de Lange \ }# \| / +46-734352015 \ \ `--| _/ <Hacker for Hire> \ `---' \ +31-640037120 / \ frank(a)unternet.org / `------------------------' [ "Omnis enim res, quae dando non deficit, dum habetur et non datur, nondum habetur, quomodo habenda est." ]

Oct. 25, 2003

Re: [Dillo-dev] [PATCH] Version 2 of keyboard navigation, solves problem with Tab

by Frank de Lange

Jorge Arellano Cid wrote: >Hi, > > Here go my comments on the keyboard navigation patches. > > I like them, and would like to commit it probably in the next >version (kbd3). > > Good! Maybe it would be a good idea to wait for patch #4 though, as #3 might (not sure yet) contain some big changes in the way links are found. This might introduce new bugs... > Note: we use to work heavily on patches and commit only after >they're stable or polished. All this with a view to keep a >relatively stable CVS source tree to work with. This is different >to the usual model, but it has its rewards. With regard to the >keyboard navigation patch, it probably can be polished better >when on CVS, so here my remarks to make the next version into the >sources. > > I agree with screening patches for bugs, but I think there should be a way for patches to get more exposure than they currently do. Many eyes make all bugs shallow, release early release often, rinse, repeat, etc. I test te patches, but I can only try so many sites and combinations. Several bugs have been found by users (eg. the LOCALE bug in GtkFrameset) which I probably would not have found. >>>I would at least leave the traditional line, for reasons of >>>consistence. Perhaps the link may be also highlighted, in a lighter >>>color than the background color (and lightgray for white etc., look at >>>Dw_style_color_create, which is used for shaded colors for borders)? >>>This would make it unconfusable with text selections. >>> >>> >>I have tried using tile and stipple fill patterns for focus highlight, >>this did not give useable results. Next on the line is color, with a >>(stippled/dashed) frame around the link. >> >> > > This is a good idea. Having the spaces inside links highlighted >and the whole kbd. nav. current link in a distinctive pattern or >color > > I have used Sebastian's patch for a while now, let my GF try it, and we are unanimous: looks much nicer ('more professional'), but is less useable (hard to see where focus is). The next version of the patch will use both color and a frame for focus highlight. > One thing I noticed between kbd1 and kbd2 is that sometimes the >latter makes odd jumps when using UP and DOWN keys. For instance >with "gtk-types.html" page from GTK+'s manual. > > What problem are you referring to? I tried that page (both for the GTK+-1.2 and GTK+-2.2 manuals), and it reacted the way I would expect it to (down goes down a link, up takes focus one link up). Completely predictable and consistent. Which does not surprise me, as this is a relatively 'easy' page with many links to choose from. The places where I see inconsistent behaviour are mostly: - going UP in a page with few links sometimes takes me DOWN instead... This is caused by the fact that links which have not yet been displayed have their location set to '0,0'. The 'UP' code tries to find a link with a lower y-coordinate than the current cursor. The solution is probably to give such 'unknown' links a recognizable location (-1,-1) and ignore them for positional navigation. - sometimes a link is highlit when I did not ask for it (eg. first page of Google search results). Have to look in to this. - sometimes focus cycles to the top of the document when pressing 'DOWN' on the last link on the page. This should not happen. Cause probably the same as above. - it is currently not possible to use Tab to focus the next frame in a frameset. This is clearly a bug... > The "directional" navigation of links feels very handy and >intuitive. One thing that can be improved is when the current >link is outside the screen not to jump to it upon a key press but >to find the most appropriate one within the displayed area. This >would allow for a smooth keyboard navigation by integrating with >the scrolling keys. > > Ah, but what about those cases where there are no links inside the displayed area? This happens quite often, eg. the 'next/prev' links on the top and bottom of a document generated with LaTeX2html (and such). This is actually what made me notice the problem in the first place. I think that in these cases, 'sequential' focus (just take the next link from the document source) is the best compromise between useability and performance. To really solve this problem, the document would have to be pre-rendered once to learn the location of all links. That is to big a sacrifice for to little gain I think. [LIST: what do you think?] Cheers//Frank -- WWWWW ________________________ ## o o\ / Frank de Lange \ }# \| / +46-734352015 \ \ `--| _/ <Hacker for Hire> \ `---' \ +31-640037120 / \ frank(a)unternet.org / `------------------------' [ "Omnis enim res, quae dando non deficit, dum habetur et non datur, nondum habetur, quomodo habenda est." ]

Oct. 25, 2003

Re: [Dillo-dev] Thanks

by Maurice McCarthy

The invitation is nice but I don't think I have the skill. Where I work if something is not functioning then you a) hit it with a scaffold pole b) if its too small, hit it with a shifter (adjustable spanner) c) take it apart and clean it d) if its electrical push every button in sight e) when you know you've really broken it then f) call the maintenance dept. Maurice On Sat, Oct 25, 2003 at 12:05:36AM +0200 or thereabouts, Diego S?enz wrote: > El Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:31:46 +0100 > Maurice McCarthy <maurice.mccarthy(a)ntlworld.com> escribio: > > > Hi folks > > > > Just to say thanks one last time. I'm going to leave you all in peace to > > get on with your projects. > This can be your proyect too and you do not need to make a war for it ;) > > Diego. > > _______________________________________________ > Dillo-dev mailing list > Dillo-dev(a)lists.auriga.wearlab.de > http://lists.auriga.wearlab.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dillo-dev

Oct. 25, 2003

/. html fix

by johannes leimbach

Hi! As dillo can't show /. properly (messed up html code), someone made up a modified html.c, which can render broken html. This patch was mentioned in this mailing list some time ago (i think it was even me who asked). Ehem, anyway, I've lost the link to it, and -call me stupid- I can't find it anymore using google or the mailing list search :/ Sorry.. So can please someone give me the link for the html.c fix again? Thanks, johannes :)

Oct. 25, 2003

Re: [Dillo-dev] Thanks

by Diego Sáenz

El Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:31:46 +0100 Maurice McCarthy <maurice.mccarthy(a)ntlworld.com> escribio: > Hi folks > > Just to say thanks one last time. I'm going to leave you all in peace to > get on with your projects. This can be your proyect too and you do not need to make a war for it ;) Diego.

Oct. 24, 2003

Thanks

by Maurice McCarthy

Hi folks Just to say thanks one last time. I'm going to leave you all in peace to get on with your projects. Thinks I sussed cvs OK but I've not managed to install Frank's patch yet - not even 20030926. But none of that is your problem. It's not whether you win or lose, It's how you place the blame! (Snoopy) Great Work Thaks Again Maurice

Oct. 24, 2003

Re: [Dillo-dev] [PATCH] Version 2 of keyboard navigation, solves problem with Tab

by Paul Pelzl

On Fri, Oct 24, 2003 at 05:21:07PM +0200, Frank de Lange wrote: > Melvin Hadasht wrote: > > >>>e.g. Alt-Tab is used by many window managers, and generally, I expect > >>>key combinations with the Alt modifier more at the level of > >>>windows. (IMO, no modifiers should be used for link navigation, > >>>conflicts with other functions have to be resolved somehow.) > >>> > >>> > >>Hm, Alt-Tab is not bound by default... Alt-(cursor_key) is, but that > >>combination is not used by any of the window managers I use/have used. > >> > >> > > > >Just wanted to say that WindowMaker uses MOD1 (alt) Up/Down to raise/lower > >the window It also use CTRL-MOD1 Left/Rigth to switch to next/previous > >workspace > >MOD1-Tab is used to switch windows. But as long as the keys are > >configurable, > >I don't see this as a problem. I think WindowMaker is one of the most > >spread > >window manager among users that do not use Gnome or KDE. > > > >I'd suggest Ctrl-Arrows. Ctrl-Arrows are used in text editor to jump to > >next > >words, so users will mostly try Ctrl-Arrow instead of Alt-Arrow > > > > > > > Ah, WindowMaker... used it around 1996, did not remember that binding... > > Anyway, Ctrl-<cursor_keys> is used (by me at least) for workspace (or > 'virtual desktop') switching, ALT-CTRL-<cursor_keys> for window movement > between workspaces, etc. > > So... more opinions? The default setup of the Ion window manager uses only Mod1-* bindings, but requires rather a lot of them. I am using Ctrl-arrows for that reason. Also I agree with Melvin that this choice is intuitive because Ctrl-arrows jumps across words in many word processors. Of course, you won't find me complaining as long as the gtkrc magic is available... Paul

Oct. 24, 2003

Re: [Dillo-dev] Bug #502 solved

by Jorge Arellano Cid

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003, Frédéric Bothamy wrote: > Hello, > > I submitted the bug #502 a while ago about some PNG images not displayed > correctly. And today someone finally gave the explanation: the Debian > web server sends GIFs images with image/png content type (and png > extension) (for more details, see > http://lists.debian.org/debian-www/2003/debian-www-200310/msg00133.html) > > Could someone, please, close this (non-)bug? Deleted! BTW, this is one of the wonderful effects to adhering to standards and not to try to silently "correct" what is wrong. Many webmasters provide broken HTML because the tools they use to test it don't tell them there're bugs in the first place. Appart from what Ralph brilliantly exposes in "The decommoditization of protocols" (http://www.levien.com/free/decommoditizing.html) when standards are met, development of new tools to work with compliant objects gets much easier. I should really write a bit about the link between adhering to standards and its impact in the democratization of internet information access... > Sorry for not testing this issue enough and thanks for this wonderful, > lightweight browser. You're welcome. Cheers Jorge.-

Oct. 24, 2003