- Dillo-dev - lists.mailman3.com

How to get dillo up to speed; was: LinuxBIOS with X Server Inside

by Justus Winter

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hey folks :) I completely agree with Marc on this topic. I have been following this list for some time now and I have heard all kinds of people proposing interesting uses for dillo and I like to add one more to this list. I have done some research in web security, mostly session riding based attacks. Dillo, with its missing javascript interpreter and css engine being a feature this time, is not vulnerable against most session riding attacks. Though most session riding attacks require javascript, it has been shown, that port scanning and web server fingerprinting is possible using only html and css. So why not use dillo on workstations in your internal network to protect your intranet web applications against malicious javascript and css? Also with its small codebase (compared to geckos), some kind of auditing might be possible. But on the other hand, more and more web sites and web applications require css (which is definitively a good thing) and javascript (which may not be a good thing). The web is a moving target, and everyone developing a web browser is playing catch up with the standards and with the ever growing demands of users and developers. And I for one think, that no one of the big four is doing very well... Dillo development has stagnated. So with every day that passes, dillos practicability, the number of users and the number of developers interested in doing some work for dillo decreases. I can understand Jorges bitterness, but this wont get dillo anywhere. If its more work for a company (-> money and time) to get dillo up to speed to meet their needs than to strip down gecko or khtml until it fits into their devices (or whatever they want to do with it), they wont choose dillo. With every single day, the value of the dillo codebase decreases. And on some day it wont matter if it is ever released or not, because it is completely useless for the applications and sites out there. Maybe this day has already passed without any one noticing. By the way, I keep referring to "the code". Yes I know that the GTK branch is out there. Yes, I have taken a look at it and yes, I began to develop an plugin, but I realized that the plugin interface was lacking some important things (registering uri handlers comes to mind - it is hardly an plugin if you need to touch and recompile parts of dillo). So I stopped before I began any serious work. Dillo felt dead. No one is going to invest time in an project which was somewhat abandoned by its main developer. No offense, but this is how it feels. Most free software developers are working on these kind of projects in their leisure time, they want to have fun. If dillo wants to attract developers, developing dillo needs to be fun. There are lots and lots of free software projects that discussed how to make developing their software fun. Things like giving write access to repositories to developers interested in development, creating branches or creating a wiki could help. It is somewhat true, that one or two developers working on dillo full time would be nice, but as long as no one pays for this, I don't see how this is possible. But this all or nothing attitude will kill dillo in the long term. Jorge, consider releasing this patch of yours. You have got very little to loose (or am I missing something?) but this might spark some interest in dillo development again. Just my thoughts... Cheers, Justus -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGAHnvoPmwNWhsaZYRAoNLAJsHj2vSgz7cNRlhtm5B3YOMHMJV+ACfRt5b lJWqSxIQSwnDeilDYX4AcA8= =mCxX -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

March 21, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] LinuxBIOS with X Server Inside

by Alan Carvalho de Assis

Hi, first sorry about pre-posting. You are right, but Jorge can keep it closed if he want. We need to convince he it is not the best way. He will not be successful keeping it closed or keeping tight control over dillo resource inclusion. People needs i18n, ssl, javascript, flash, etc... Maybe a best approach can be keep resource configurable, then you can compile dillo for a deep embedded system with minimal resources or compile it for a small linux distro with full resources. God save Dillo, Alan 2007/3/20, Mark South <marksouth2000(a)yahoo.co.uk>: > Hi. > > I should introduce myself, because I've never posted, although > I've been lurking on this list for a long time. I'm more a > distro hacker than a browser hacker. But enough about that. > > I still remember how I was delighted when I discovered dillo, and > how small it was, and its amazing power-to-weight ratio. > > There is clearly a need for a browser like dillo. Firefox, > Seamonkey, Opera, all use a lot of memory and run slowly on all > but modern machines. There are numerous Linux distros consisting > entirely of software that will run happily on a 64 MB PII, except > for the huge lump of a browser. DSL has Firefox and Puppy has > Seamonkey, for example. (They both have dillo but don't consider > it sufficient on its own.) This is something like putting armour > plate on a formula one car. > > If dillo had tabs (without prescribing the window manager), > multiple languages, and solid enough cookie and SSL supprt that > one could read webmail from it easily, it would be the browser > that fit most perfectly with the small Linux distros. And yet > they are all talking about dropping it because it's no longer > much use on the modern web. > > And yet every day I wish that I had in my hands a dillo that was > just that tiny bit more capable than 0.8.5 is, and was known to > be under active development and maintenance. Something more > general than lynx/links/elinks and a lot lighter on resources > than Gecko-based browsers and that ilk. > > Like many others, I have gradually become pessimistic about dillo > ever being revived. I have watched it being dropped from distro > after distro, and even pleaded with the port maintainer > (unsuccessfully) for it to be kept in OpenBSD. > > Clearly there is a problem here, and it's not to do with FLTK not > releasing (they do) or lack of interest in a light-to-mid-weight > browser, because loads of people want exactly that. > > --- Jorge Arellano Cid <jcid(a)dillo.org> wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 19, 2007 at 08:45:38AM -0300, Alan Carvalho de > > Assis wrote: > > > > > > I don't understand why nice projects as Dillo, Linux-Tiny and > > > other don't attract developers. > > Sourceforge has like 100,000+ projects listed. There is no > shortage of willing developers out there. So why doesn't dillo > get developers? > > One reason for projects to lose their attractiveness is when > project ownership narrows too far. This is happening right now > with at least 2 Linux distros that I could name, but won't. > People in the community are becoming reluctant to contribute to a > project that is held under the narrow control of a small cadre. > > On the other hand, projects that have wide ownership are thriving > and multiplying. > > > Actually, Dillo attracts developers, it is the high > > time dedication and specific expertise it demands what > > stops most of them. > > Are you sure about that? I ask because I'm not convinced it's a > shortage of smart people in the world. > > I worry that it's the relentless focus on getting funding before > development starts again, or the indecision caused by being > unable to decide whether to proceed with forking off a new > project from 0.8.5, the last version that would build on multiple > platforms, or to wait for Jorge to release the FLTK code that he > has and let people work on it. > > If Jorge were to declare that he will never release the FLTK > port, there are people out there who would probably continue > development starting from the 0.8.5 codebase. > > If Jorge were to declare that he will make the existing FLTK code > available for others to develop, I'd be surprised if several > people didn't step forward to help. > > So, from where I'm sitting, it looks like the real problem is > uncertainty about which way to go, and perhaps if Jorge were to > let go of either his hopes of making a living from dillo or of > total control of the dillo code, there might be a way forward for > further development. > > I would further suggest that if Jorge doesn't have the time for > development work on dillo, he would nevertheless be the first > choice for the overall architect of the ongoing development. > Being architect of a successful project that releases useful code > may be a better result, career-wise, than being commercial owner > of a project that failed to release a complete unit version and > faded away. But that would be for Jorge to decide. I hope that > he will decide, one way or the other, and decide soon, and make > that decision public soon as well. > > Now, I expect that I'll get a few hasty flames in response to > this mail, but I don't mean to attack anyone personally. That > said, there is a *very* small number of people who could make a > huge difference to the dillo project by their actions, and I hope > that they will read this message as constructive. > > I would still hope, and would definitely like to be able, to draw > on dillo as a working solution in the future, as would many > others. > > Sincere best wishes to *all* recipients on the dillo-dev- list, > Mark > > PS Apologies for the length of this message. I guess it shows > that I kept quiet for too long. > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html > > _______________________________________________ > Dillo-dev mailing list > Dillo-dev(a)dillo.org > http://lists.auriga.wearlab.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dillo-dev > -- ------------------------------------------------------------ | Alan Carvalho de Assis | ------------------------------------------------------------ -- Não importa o que os outros irão pensar, A cura para a infelicidade é a felicidade

March 20, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] LinuxBIOS with X Server Inside

by Mark South

Hi. I should introduce myself, because I've never posted, although I've been lurking on this list for a long time. I'm more a distro hacker than a browser hacker. But enough about that. I still remember how I was delighted when I discovered dillo, and how small it was, and its amazing power-to-weight ratio. There is clearly a need for a browser like dillo. Firefox, Seamonkey, Opera, all use a lot of memory and run slowly on all but modern machines. There are numerous Linux distros consisting entirely of software that will run happily on a 64 MB PII, except for the huge lump of a browser. DSL has Firefox and Puppy has Seamonkey, for example. (They both have dillo but don't consider it sufficient on its own.) This is something like putting armour plate on a formula one car. If dillo had tabs (without prescribing the window manager), multiple languages, and solid enough cookie and SSL supprt that one could read webmail from it easily, it would be the browser that fit most perfectly with the small Linux distros. And yet they are all talking about dropping it because it's no longer much use on the modern web. And yet every day I wish that I had in my hands a dillo that was just that tiny bit more capable than 0.8.5 is, and was known to be under active development and maintenance. Something more general than lynx/links/elinks and a lot lighter on resources than Gecko-based browsers and that ilk. Like many others, I have gradually become pessimistic about dillo ever being revived. I have watched it being dropped from distro after distro, and even pleaded with the port maintainer (unsuccessfully) for it to be kept in OpenBSD. Clearly there is a problem here, and it's not to do with FLTK not releasing (they do) or lack of interest in a light-to-mid-weight browser, because loads of people want exactly that. --- Jorge Arellano Cid <jcid(a)dillo.org> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 19, 2007 at 08:45:38AM -0300, Alan Carvalho de > Assis wrote: > > > > I don't understand why nice projects as Dillo, Linux-Tiny and > > other don't attract developers. Sourceforge has like 100,000+ projects listed. There is no shortage of willing developers out there. So why doesn't dillo get developers? One reason for projects to lose their attractiveness is when project ownership narrows too far. This is happening right now with at least 2 Linux distros that I could name, but won't. People in the community are becoming reluctant to contribute to a project that is held under the narrow control of a small cadre. On the other hand, projects that have wide ownership are thriving and multiplying. > Actually, Dillo attracts developers, it is the high > time dedication and specific expertise it demands what > stops most of them. Are you sure about that? I ask because I'm not convinced it's a shortage of smart people in the world. I worry that it's the relentless focus on getting funding before development starts again, or the indecision caused by being unable to decide whether to proceed with forking off a new project from 0.8.5, the last version that would build on multiple platforms, or to wait for Jorge to release the FLTK code that he has and let people work on it. If Jorge were to declare that he will never release the FLTK port, there are people out there who would probably continue development starting from the 0.8.5 codebase. If Jorge were to declare that he will make the existing FLTK code available for others to develop, I'd be surprised if several people didn't step forward to help. So, from where I'm sitting, it looks like the real problem is uncertainty about which way to go, and perhaps if Jorge were to let go of either his hopes of making a living from dillo or of total control of the dillo code, there might be a way forward for further development. I would further suggest that if Jorge doesn't have the time for development work on dillo, he would nevertheless be the first choice for the overall architect of the ongoing development. Being architect of a successful project that releases useful code may be a better result, career-wise, than being commercial owner of a project that failed to release a complete unit version and faded away. But that would be for Jorge to decide. I hope that he will decide, one way or the other, and decide soon, and make that decision public soon as well. Now, I expect that I'll get a few hasty flames in response to this mail, but I don't mean to attack anyone personally. That said, there is a *very* small number of people who could make a huge difference to the dillo project by their actions, and I hope that they will read this message as constructive. I would still hope, and would definitely like to be able, to draw on dillo as a working solution in the future, as would many others. Sincere best wishes to *all* recipients on the dillo-dev- list, Mark PS Apologies for the length of this message. I guess it shows that I kept quiet for too long. ___________________________________________________________ Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html

March 20, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] LinuxBIOS with X Server Inside

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi Alan, On Mon, Mar 19, 2007 at 08:45:38AM -0300, Alan Carvalho de Assis wrote: > Hi Jorge, > > 2007/3/12, Jorge Arellano Cid <jcid(a)dillo.org>: > > Hi Alan. > > > > Unfortunately there's no much point in doing it without developers... > > > > (except for the hope of attracting developers :-) > > > > I don't understand why nice projects as Dillo, Linux-Tiny and other > don't attract developers. Actually, Dillo attracts developers, it is the high time dedication and specific expertise it demands what stops most of them. > > > I'll watch the video tis week! And I did. Congratulations, a very interesting demo! > I think will be hard to integrate Dillo inside it, the BIOS flash > (2MB) don't left space, but maybe using LZMA I will get 500KB. jcid@infinity:~/C/Dillo/proto/dillo-f15/src$ ls -l dillo-fltk.gz -rwxr-xr-x 1 jcid users 373895 Mar 20 08:14 dillo-fltk.gz* > Did you tested to compile Dillo FLTK with uClibc? Not personally but other guys have succeeded in doing it. -- Cheers Jorge.-

March 20, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] LinuxBIOS with X Server Inside

by Alan Carvalho de Assis

Hi Jorge, 2007/3/12, Jorge Arellano Cid <jcid(a)dillo.org>: > Hi Alan. > > Unfortunately there's no much point in doing it without developers... > > (except for the hope of attracting developers :-) > I don't understand why nice projects as Dillo, Linux-Tiny and other don't attract developers. > I'll watch the video tis week! > I think will be hard to integrate Dillo inside it, the BIOS flash (2MB) don't left space, but maybe using LZMA I will get 500KB. Did you tested to compile Dillo FLTK with uClibc? > -- > Cheers > Jorge.- > Cheers, Alan

March 19, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] LinuxBIOS with X Server Inside

by Jorge Arellano Cid

On Fri, Mar 09, 2007 at 09:44:30AM -0300, Alan Carvalho de Assis wrote: > Hi guys, Hi Alan. > as I said before I am developing a minimal graphic distro Linux. Now I > extended the idea and place everything inside BIOS. > > There is the video: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuzRsXKm_NQ > > I hope Dillo FLTK become free soon, Me too! Unfortunately there's no much point in doing it without developers... (except for the hope of attracting developers :-) > then we can integrate it inside BIOS > too. > > I am developing the tutorial at > http://www.linuxabordo.com.br/wiki/index.php?title=LinuxBIOS_Graphical > > I hope you enjoy! I'll watch the video tis week! -- Cheers Jorge.-

March 12, 2007

LinuxBIOS with X Server Inside

by Alan Carvalho de Assis

Hi guys, as I said before I am developing a minimal graphic distro Linux. Now I extended the idea and place everything inside BIOS. There is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuzRsXKm_NQ I hope Dillo FLTK become free soon, then we can integrate it inside BIOS too. I am developing the tutorial at http://www.linuxabordo.com.br/wiki/index.php?title=LinuxBIOS_Graphical I hope you enjoy! Cheers, Alan

March 9, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] PledgeBank ?

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi Vincent, On Fri, Feb 09, 2007 at 04:30:39PM +0100, Vincent Thomasset wrote: > Le Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:56:47 -0300, > Jorge Arellano Cid <jcid(a)dillo.org> a écrit : > > > Hi Vincent, > > > > Raising some funds, and to create awareness of what the current > > status of the Dillo project is, looks like a good idea. It would > > be important to let the readers know that we seek funds to be > > able to quit our jobs and to dedicate full time to work on Dillo > > for at least a year (when hopefully we could have secured some > > enterprise funding to continue). > > > > This is simply a too fast a moving target for two developers > > to chase working after hours. > > I understand all of this, but i doubt the pledge could pay for this > all by itself. BTW, how much money do you think we should be aiming > for ? I thought about going with 10$ pledges but i'm not sure how many > between 1000, 2500 or 5000, 1000 probably being the reasonable choice. 20$ to reach 5000. At least that could give hope to being able to work again on it. The cost of life is not very high in Chile and donations may help. -- Cheers Jorge.-

Feb. 25, 2007

Web page update

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi there, As said sometime ago in this mailing list, I went to update the front page of Dillo's site to let our users know what the current status of the project is, and what we're doing/expecting. It is just a small section under the "Project Objectives". Please give it a read and send your feedback here if any. I know the "funding" link would benefit from an update, but sometime ago it was quite current and as it yielded no results, I'm not sure it to be worth the effort anymore ;-). Perhaps an alternative way could work better. -- Cheers Jorge.-

Feb. 25, 2007

FLTK2 port to DirectFB

by Diego .

It seems that somebody is working on the port of FLTK2 to DirectFB http://www.fltk.org/newsgroups.php?gfltk.development+v:4889 I do not get to compile it, but i hope that somebody can. (It is in a very early stage yet) Nothing more, good bye. Diego.

Feb. 16, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] Port/package for Nokia 770 / N800

by Frédéric Bothamy

* Jorge Arellano Cid <jcid(a)dillo.org> [2007-02-15 09:38] : > On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 12:18:03PM +0000, Anuj Verma (Kevin) wrote: > > Hello list, > > Hi. > > > I am curious to know if there is a package of Dillo for Nokia 770 or N800 ? > > Not AFAIK. > > > > Will someone be please interested to contribute one ? > > > > Refer: > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N800 > > http://maemo.org > > Yes, me! (if Nokia is interested in sponsoring such endeavour) > > Are you telling me the N800 doesn't come with a web browser? Unfortunately for you, there is already a web browser in the N800, a trimmed-down version of Opera 8 which supports Flash (v7 only, I believe), CSS and Javascript (cf. http://www.nokiausa.com/N800/1,9008,feat:1,00.html) I believe that these features are mandatory for the official Nokia web browser. OTOH I would be very interested by this port and I think it would be worthwile as the default web browser is quite slow on complicated webpages (on my N770). Fred

Feb. 15, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] Port/package for Nokia 770 / N800

by Jorge Arellano Cid

On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 12:18:03PM +0000, Anuj Verma (Kevin) wrote: > Hello list, Hi. > I am curious to know if there is a package of Dillo for Nokia 770 or N800 ? Not AFAIK. > Will someone be please interested to contribute one ? > > Refer: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N800 > http://maemo.org Yes, me! (if Nokia is interested in sponsoring such endeavour) Are you telling me the N800 doesn't come with a web browser? If this is the case, it may be time to talk to Nokia again... -- Cheers Jorge.-

Feb. 15, 2007

Port/package for Nokia 770 / N800

by Anuj Verma (Kevin)

Hello list, I am curious to know if there is a package of Dillo for Nokia 770 or N800 ? Will someone be please interested to contribute one ? Refer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N800 http://maemo.org Cheers, Kevin

Feb. 11, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] PledgeBank ?

by Vincent Thomasset

Le Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:56:47 -0300, Jorge Arellano Cid <jcid(a)dillo.org> a écrit : > Hi Vincent, > > Raising some funds, and to create awareness of what the current > status of the Dillo project is, looks like a good idea. It would > be important to let the readers know that we seek funds to be > able to quit our jobs and to dedicate full time to work on Dillo > for at least a year (when hopefully we could have secured some > enterprise funding to continue). > > This is simply a too fast a moving target for two developers > to chase working after hours. I understand all of this, but i doubt the pledge could pay for this all by itself. BTW, how much money do you think we should be aiming for ? I thought about going with 10$ pledges but i'm not sure how many between 1000, 2500 or 5000, 1000 probably being the reasonable choice. > We're looking for interested developers to work on Dillo. This > is also key to the success of the project. This is the kind of > developer that not only sends patches but that contributes to the > core of it. > > Sometime ago I asked in this list for interested developers and > got only one answer for a "patch-developer" so to speak. Again, i'm really interested in Dillo's future, but i can't make any hard commitment to it's development... > I like FOSDEM!, was once there, and there're lots of different > people attending it. From technical to management. If you can > pass the above ideas (more or less deatiled in my previous posts > too) with a broad target scope, it could certainly help the > project, and we'd appreciate that. Unfortunately, i'm not sure i will attend the FOSDEM. My idea was to put together the posters with a quick description of Dillo and links to the website and the pledge. I will have to take care of this next week or so and contact the FOSDEM people to check if i can put posters in some rooms or interesting spots. Cheers, Vincent

Feb. 9, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] PledgeBank ?

by Jorge Arellano Cid

On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 06:52:55PM -0600, R.L. Horn wrote: > On Tue, 6 Feb 2007, Jorge Arellano Cid wrote: > > > - Dw was ported to C++ (some new capabilities, similar API). > > - HTML/text/script parser was ported to C++. > > I'm sorry to hear that. If the plan is a general switchover to C++, I'll > have to back out. I don't do C++, Java, etc. for free -- it's just not > worth the aggravation. > > Hell, I've just discovered that FLTK2 (r5642) won't even build with my > current compiler/linker combination. Sorry, life's too short for this > kind of crap. Believe it or not, I have a similar feeling about C++, and try to avoid it as much as I can. Now, FLTK2 is a good toolkit (trying to use a small subset of C++'s bloat), and there were parts of Dillo that needed to be ported to it, but is mainly as C-ish as it was before. Although I still have to try to convince Sebastian to a smallest C++ feature set in Dw. Not much of his fault, maybe he didn't have an option, with C++ you have the curse of templates. -- Cheers Jorge.-

Feb. 8, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] [marco@hep.uchicago.edu: Re: Dillo not compiling]

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi Livio!!!! Really good news to know you're around! On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 03:48:42PM -0500, Livio Soares wrote: > Hi Marco, > > Marco Mambelli writes: > > Hi Livio, > > Thank you, I added glib-devel and gtk+-devel > > > > autogen and configure are fine now. > > Nice. > > > In compilation there are some warning (signedness mainly) and errors in > > downloads.cc compilation: > > if g++ -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I.. -I/usr/local/include > > -I/usr/include/glib-1.2 -I/usr/lib/glib/include -g -O2 -MT downloads.o -MD > > -MP -MF ".deps/downloads.Tpo" -c -o downloads.o downloads.cc; \ > > then mv -f ".deps/downloads.Tpo" ".deps/downloads.Po"; else rm -f > > ".deps/downloads.Tpo"; exit 1; fi > > downloads.cc:34:22: error: fltk/run.h: No such file or directory > > downloads.cc:35:25: error: fltk/Window.h: No such file or directory > > downloads.cc:36:25: error: fltk/Widget.h: No such file or directory > > downloads.cc:37:25: error: fltk/damage.h: No such file or directory > > ... and many other errors depending probably on the missing files > > (undefined variables, scope problems, ...) > > > > I installed fltk and fltk-devel libraries but this did not solved the > > problem. > > Unfortunately, this isn't very well documented, but you actually > need FLTK 2, to allow the download DPI to work. If I remember > correctly (Jorge can correct me if I'm wrong), compiling the download > DPI is optional (--disable-dlgui, I think, was the configure option). You're right: --disable-dlgui compiles with the old (silent) downloader. > > So, you can either forget about the download DPI, find RPMs for > FLTK2 (both library and -devel), or build/install FLTK2 yourself. Kelson has made very good RPMs. I'm using one of them in a Scientific Linux machine, it comes with FLTK2 downloader dpi, and works great. > Now, don't you just _love_ recursive build dependences ;P ;-) -- Cheers Jorge.-

Feb. 8, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] PledgeBank ?

by R.L. Horn

On Tue, 6 Feb 2007, Jorge Arellano Cid wrote: > - Dw was ported to C++ (some new capabilities, similar API). > - HTML/text/script parser was ported to C++. I'm sorry to hear that. If the plan is a general switchover to C++, I'll have to back out. I don't do C++, Java, etc. for free -- it's just not worth the aggravation. Hell, I've just discovered that FLTK2 (r5642) won't even build with my current compiler/linker combination. Sorry, life's too short for this kind of crap.

Feb. 8, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] [marco@hep.uchicago.edu: Re: Dillo not compiling]

by Livio Soares

Hi Marco, Marco Mambelli writes: > Hi Livio, > Thank you, I added glib-devel and gtk+-devel > > autogen and configure are fine now. Nice. > In compilation there are some warning (signedness mainly) and errors in > downloads.cc compilation: > if g++ -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I.. -I/usr/local/include > -I/usr/include/glib-1.2 -I/usr/lib/glib/include -g -O2 -MT downloads.o -MD > -MP -MF ".deps/downloads.Tpo" -c -o downloads.o downloads.cc; \ > then mv -f ".deps/downloads.Tpo" ".deps/downloads.Po"; else rm -f > ".deps/downloads.Tpo"; exit 1; fi > downloads.cc:34:22: error: fltk/run.h: No such file or directory > downloads.cc:35:25: error: fltk/Window.h: No such file or directory > downloads.cc:36:25: error: fltk/Widget.h: No such file or directory > downloads.cc:37:25: error: fltk/damage.h: No such file or directory > ... and many other errors depending probably on the missing files > (undefined variables, scope problems, ...) > > I installed fltk and fltk-devel libraries but this did not solved the > problem. Unfortunately, this isn't very well documented, but you actually need FLTK 2, to allow the download DPI to work. If I remember correctly (Jorge can correct me if I'm wrong), compiling the download DPI is optional (--disable-dlgui, I think, was the configure option). So, you can either forget about the download DPI, find RPMs for FLTK2 (both library and -devel), or build/install FLTK2 yourself. Now, don't you just _love_ recursive build dependences ;P Good luck, Livio

Feb. 6, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] [marco@hep.uchicago.edu: Re: Dillo not compiling]

by Livio Soares

Hi Marco, Marco Mambelli writes: [...] > Do you think it is some library version problem? > I have a FC4 machine and glib is glib-1.2.10-16 Do you have the -devel packages installed, as well? From your error, it _looks_ like you need glib-devel and gtk-devel packages are not installed. Good luck, Livio

Feb. 6, 2007

[marco@hep.uchicago.edu: Re: Dillo not compiling]

by Jorge Arellano Cid

-- Cheers Jorge.-

Feb. 6, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] PledgeBank ?

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi Johannes and R.L, Please excuse my delay to answer. Finally I found some time to address this. On Thu, Feb 01, 2007 at 05:25:49PM +0100, Johannes Hofmann wrote: > Hi Jorge, > > On Thu, Feb 01, 2007 at 08:56:47AM -0300, Jorge Arellano Cid wrote: > > > > Another important point is that we're not working with GTK1 > > anymore, but with FLTK2 (antialiasing, UTF-8, statical linking in > > 700KB, less dependencies, etc). We have an advanced prototype. > > This is important for potential developers. > > > > We're looking for interested developers to work on Dillo. This > > is also key to the success of the project. This is the kind of > > developer that not only sends patches but that contributes to the > > core of it. > > > > Sometime ago I asked in this list for interested developers and > > got only one answer for a "patch-developer" so to speak. > > I'm a long time dillo user and have some experience with fltk1 and > fltk2 from my small spare time projects. > I would be happy to contribute to the dillo project but my time > will be limited... "R.L. Horn" wrote: > > Sometime ago I asked in this list for interested developers and > >got only one answer for a "patch-developer" so to speak. > > Actually, I volunteered some time back and never got a response. I > haven't fiddled with FLTK development, but I reckon I could pick it up in > a week or so. Thanks for commiting some time to Dillo! PLease let me know a rough estimate of how much time could this be. Just to have an idea of what kind of task you both can work in based on your expertise and available time. At this moment, much of Dillo is quite similar to what we had in 0.8.x series. The main differences are: - Dw was ported to C++ (some new capabilities, similar API). - HTML/text/script parser was ported to C++. - The Concomitant callback chain was redesigned for simplicity. (Now, instead of one CCC branch per task, an anhanced universal branch handles Dpi, HTML, text and images). - Bug fixes/injections ;-) A great thing is that Dw is well documented (Doxygen), it has a testbed, it's isolated from Dillo and it can be studied comfortably. OTOH, there's a lot of middle/minor work to be done to complete its implementation. If I get your time availability it would be easier to plan with Sebastian what to suggest you to work on. Thanks a lot for your commitment. May thy example be followed by the listeners! :-) -- Cheers Jorge.-

Feb. 6, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] PledgeBank ?

by R.L. Horn

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Jorge Arellano Cid wrote: > Sometime ago I asked in this list for interested developers and > got only one answer for a "patch-developer" so to speak. Actually, I volunteered some time back and never got a response. I haven't fiddled with FLTK development, but I reckon I could pick it up in a week or so.

Feb. 2, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] PledgeBank ?

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi Vincent, On Mon, Jan 29, 2007 at 03:13:51AM +0100, Vincent Thomasset wrote: > Hi Jorge, > > What do you think of trying to raise some funds using pledgebank ? > I know this is not really the type of funding you're expecting for > Dillo, but it should be interesting to see if there's a response. > > Considering what recently happened to the nouveau project [1] > (someone raised 1300+ 10$ donations in their name), if think it > could be interesting to take the chance. Raising some funds, and to create awareness of what the current status of the Dillo project is, looks like a good idea. It would be important to let the readers know that we seek funds to be able to quit our jobs and to dedicate full time to work on Dillo for at least a year (when hopefully we could have secured some enterprise funding to continue). This is simply a too fast a moving target for two developers to chase working after hours. Another important point is that we're not working with GTK1 anymore, but with FLTK2 (antialiasing, UTF-8, statical linking in 700KB, less dependencies, etc). We have an advanced prototype. This is important for potential developers. We're looking for interested developers to work on Dillo. This is also key to the success of the project. This is the kind of developer that not only sends patches but that contributes to the core of it. Sometime ago I asked in this list for interested developers and got only one answer for a "patch-developer" so to speak. > On a related note, the FOSDEM will be held 5 minutes away from my > place, i could drop some "Fund Dillo" posters there to get some > publicity. > > What do you think ? I like FOSDEM!, was once there, and there're lots of different people attending it. From technical to management. If you can pass the above ideas (more or less deatiled in my previous posts too) with a broad target scope, it could certainly help the project, and we'd appreciate that. -- Cheers Jorge.- PS: you can also get some material from the articles posted in linuxdevices (look in www.dillo.org/press.html)

Feb. 1, 2007

PledgeBank ?

by Vincent Thomasset

Hi Jorge, What do you think of trying to raise some funds using pledgebank ? I know this is not really the type of funding you're expecting for Dillo, but it should be interesting to see if there's a response. Considering what recently happened to the nouveau project [1] (someone raised 1300+ 10$ donations in their name), if think it could be interesting to take the chance. On a related note, the FOSDEM will be held 5 minutes away from my place, i could drop some "Fund Dillo" posters there to get some publicity. What do you think ? Cheers, Vincent

Jan. 29, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] [grigory@cisnet.ru: an article about dillo]

by Jorge Arellano Cid

BTW, > I hope somebody will join the project. > Thank you for your greate browser. ;-) > It would be nice to see the FLTK beta source code available for > download. I see a lot of comments to the article like "gtk1 ? no i am > not interested in joining the project.". It would be more interesting to find comments like: "Hmmm, a new Dillo, with FLTK2, I'm interested in joining the project!" If that happens don't hesitate to contact me. -- Cheers Jorge.-

Jan. 25, 2007

[grigory@cisnet.ru: an article about dillo]

by Jorge Arellano Cid

-- Cheers Jorge.-

Jan. 25, 2007

Re: Your Web Pages

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi John, First of all, thanks for checking the project. Hero go some answers... On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 09:58:37PM -0800, John Gutierrez wrote: > Jorge, > > Will you site be updated anytime soon. Some of your pages have a date of > July 24, 2003 (funding.html). I check your site from time to time, but > rarely see new information. > > Plans.html has not had an update since August 2006. I would imagine that the > bullet colors would have changed by now. > > The ChangeLog.html shows a date of Apr 26, 2006 (no new version since then?) > > The FAQ.html still references version 8.4. and talks about FLTK port as of > 2005! > > Fosdem 2005 and LSM 2005 are OLD events - anything current? > > The Achievements (A_gols.html was last modified October 2,2006 - anything > new? The Dillo project is currently frozen. I'm expecting the vacation season in Germany to end to communicate with Sebastian and update the site with an official statement of the current situation. (I've tried to reach him since late 2006 so I assume he's on holidays). The latter time was spent trying to rise funds for continuing the development with at least two people working full time on it. Funding didn't happen so I had to take a job, and as Sebastian had a job, the situation now is we're both on a spare time basis that in practice has been close to nil. OTOH, the port to FLTK2 has gone very good with no surprises and a very good transition. The problem is lack of manpower because of lack of funds. The project is frozen because it is impossible to develop a web browser (very complex task), keeping pace with the evolving technologies, by working on a spare time basis. The web site will be updated after I have a virtual meeting to discuss the points with Sebastian, or in mid February, whatever comes first. -- Cheers Jorge.-

Jan. 11, 2007

Re: [Dillo-dev] dillo chat in Logroño/La Rioja/Spain

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi Diego, On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 12:39:17PM +0100, Diego . wrote: > Ok, but with FALSE (DwPage owns a button that owns the image) the button > fail to draw the alt text when can not load the image and do not use width > and height atributes of the html tag. > Using your patch and seting the parameter to TRUE it use width, height and > alt, but do not redraw alt text. > Without your patch dillo segfaults if that parameter is true. > > Diego. Not bad for a "quick hacky patch". ;-) You can use TRUE, most probably at the expense of memory leaks and maybe some side effect too. Handling "alt text" is not trivial though. Currently the DwButton with image acts as if the only child it can have is an image (dw_button.c). Handling of "alt text" involves implementing this button to handle two childs, one for alt text and another for the image. For instance, both could be added, and the button let to chose which one to draw depending on which one is NULL at a given time. Note that the image handling is asynchronous. You don't know if it will succeed at button creation time, so the button should check both children's size (for instance), and use a successful one given preference to the image. This clearly needs careful implementation. Now, dillo-0.8.6 uses the old C/GTK1 Dw, without abstraction layer. I'd prefer to work this problem out in the new C++/FLTK2 Dw with abstraction layer. If you want to implement this in C/GTK1 Dw, the above hints should get you started. -- Cheers Jorge.- > > > > 2006/12/2, Jorge Arellano Cid <jcid(a)dillo.org>: > > > >Hi Diego, > > > >On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 02:23:01AM +0100, Diego . wrote: > >> Very thanks for the fast patch and the advices. > >> One question ¿In Html_input_image why is the function Html_add_new_image > >> called with the FALSE parameter? > > > > Quick answer: > > > > Because the image is embedded inside a button that's already > >inside the DwPage. > > > > In other words: there's no need to add the image to the DwPage > >because the button "owns" the image (think of an object), thus > >only the button object needs to be added. > > > >-- > > Cheers > > Jorge.- > > > _______________________________________________ > Dillo-dev mailing list > Dillo-dev(a)dillo.org > http://lists.auriga.wearlab.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dillo-dev

Dec. 5, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] dillo chat in Logroño/La Rioja/Spain

by Diego .

Ok, but with FALSE (DwPage owns a button that owns the image) the button fail to draw the alt text when can not load the image and do not use width and height atributes of the html tag. Using your patch and seting the parameter to TRUE it use width, height and alt, but do not redraw alt text. Without your patch dillo segfaults if that parameter is true. Diego. 2006/12/2, Jorge Arellano Cid <jcid(a)dillo.org>: > > Hi Diego, > > On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 02:23:01AM +0100, Diego . wrote: > > Very thanks for the fast patch and the advices. > > One question ¿In Html_input_image why is the function Html_add_new_image > > called with the FALSE parameter? > > Quick answer: > > Because the image is embedded inside a button that's already > inside the DwPage. > > In other words: there's no need to add the image to the DwPage > because the button "owns" the image (think of an object), thus > only the button object needs to be added. > > -- > Cheers > Jorge.- >

Dec. 5, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] dillo chat in Logroño/La Rioja/Spain

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi Diego! On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 05:44:45PM +0100, Diego . wrote: > Hello. I am Diego Sáenz. I use this mail address now (I had mail problems > and lost some mails, but i have read them in the list archive). I am > associate of AULIR (Asociacion de Usuarios de GNU/Linux de La Rioja) a > spanish LUG and will give a chat about how to wrote dillo plug-ins. I will > explain a few the dillo internals too. There are not very much programers in > AULIR(one of them program anjelica.sourceforge.net) but i will try to wake > interest about dillo. > > Any advice for the chat? Yes, just try to put up the example code, and directions on how to run it in a web site a couple of days before the chat, and ask your audience to try the example prior to the chat. That way they can experiment and play with what you're going to explain instead of having to grasp it in abstract. Trying to get all the details of dpi without experimenting with it beforehand can be tough. > I will try to show a preferences plug in as example. > Is the bug #695 solved somewhere? No, but I made a quick hacky patch for you! :-) It's not as clean and tested as I'd like, but OTOH it would not surprise me if it ends being a good solution. Please send some feedback on how it works. > i think i will need to use it for a > feature of the plug in. Here you are: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- diff -pru dillo/src/html.c dillo-cur/src/html.c --- dillo/src/html.c 2006-04-08 08:16:46.000000000 -0400 +++ dillo-cur/src/html.c 2006-11-29 16:00:40.000000000 -0300 @@ -3717,10 +3717,19 @@ static DwWidget *Html_input_image(DilloH DilloUrl *url = NULL; DwStyle style_attrs; const char *attrbuf; + DwTooltip *tooltip; if ((attrbuf = Html_get_attr(html, tag, tagsize, "src")) && (url = Html_url_new(html, attrbuf, NULL, 0, 0, 0, 0))) { button = a_Dw_button_new (0, FALSE); + + /* add the tooltip to the button holding the image */ + if (prefs.show_tooltip && + (attrbuf = Html_get_attr(html, tag, tagsize, "title"))) { + tooltip = a_Dw_tooltip_new_no_ref(attrbuf); + HTML_SET_TOP_ATTR(html, x_tooltip, tooltip); + } + a_Dw_page_add_widget (DW_PAGE (html->dw), button, html->stack[html->stack_top].style); gtk_signal_connect(GTK_OBJECT(button), "clicked_at", @@ -3728,6 +3737,7 @@ static DwWidget *Html_input_image(DilloH a_Dw_button_set_sensitive(DW_BUTTON(button), FALSE); /* create new image and add it to the button */ + style_attrs = *html->stack[html->stack_top].style; if ((Image = Html_add_new_image(html, tag, tagsize, &style_attrs, FALSE))) { /* By suppressing the "image_pressed" signal, the events are sent -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ps: i hoppe that this do not seem spam* Just disable the HTML mail and spam filters will not frown on you. -- Cheers Jorge.-

Nov. 29, 2006

dillo chat in Logroño/La Rioja/Spain

by Diego .

Hello. I am Diego Sáenz. I use this mail address now (I had mail problems and lost some mails, but i have read them in the list archive). I am associate of AULIR (Asociacion de Usuarios de GNU/Linux de La Rioja) a spanish LUG and will give a chat about how to wrote dillo plug-ins. I will explain a few the dillo internals too. There are not very much programers in AULIR(one of them program anjelica.sourceforge.net) but i will try to wake interest about dillo. Any advice for the chat? I will try to show a preferences plug in as example. Is the bug #695 solved somewhere? i think i will need to use it for a feature of the plug in. Diego. ps: i hoppe that this do not seem spam* *

Nov. 29, 2006

Re: invalid (?) relative url resolve issue +patch

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi, On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 12:47:39AM +0100, Schilter Roland wrote: > Hello, > first of all, thanks for dillo :) ;) > I think I found a bug or at least, a misbehaviour that is handled in famous browsers differently. > I looked through the code and finally figured out where to change code to get the expected behaviour. > (Took some time though :p ) > > I need to mention that I didn't read the RFC2396 about URIs and I have the feeling that the implementation > in dillo may be according to specifications but nevertheless, i couldn't browse several sites... :) > > The problem is, if a `href' attribute of html-tag `a' starts only with a query (`?test') > then the path of the baseurl is only taken until the last slash: > > <a href="?test">test</a> while the baseurl being `www.example.com/example' > > this link will resolve to www.example.com/?test although I expected it to go to www.example.com/example?test Give a look to RFC-2396 C.1 Normal examples: base = http://a/b/c/d;p?q#f relative = ?y resolved => http://a/b/c/?y Dillo passes all those tests, including the abnormal section. Ah and we also test for these extra tests: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~fielding/url/test2.html http://www.ics.uci.edu/~fielding/url/test3.html http://www.ics.uci.edu/~fielding/url/test4.html http://www.ics.uci.edu/~fielding/url/test5.html HTH. -- Cheers Jorge.-

Nov. 29, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] The sound of silence

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi, On Mon, Nov 27, 2006 at 02:11:18AM +0200, Joonas Saarinen wrote: > Hello, > > It has been almost two months of silence on this list and I thought to > ask how are you doing? :) > > Anything new about the "Campaign to help Dillo survive"? Etc. This is a very appropiate question. :-) The campaign to help Dillo survive has not attracted new funders, and the donations amount near EUR 250. This clearly doesn't change a bit the project status. People in the embedded market want a small featured browser, but don't want to invest in it. This is: if we develop it they'll use it, but there's not much interest in funding the development. From a business perspective it makes sense. Investing in Dillo to make a full featured embedable web browser of it, is a three years plan (and who knows what the Web will look like in three years). Now if they only need an embedable web browser that evolves into a full-featured one. They could start deploying it in a year. This is a business opportunity indeed, but it depends on a company having a client demanding it; here using Dillo fits the bill. On the technical side, the port to FLTK2 is almost finished, and has been a surprisingly smooth transition, without surprises, going on as planned (except that we planned for some surprises!). OTOH development is progressing at very slow pace because we, the core developers, can't work full time on it, and spare time is scarce. From a community perspective, it's interesting to notice that there's a need for a lightweight web browser (Think of OLPC, firefox's users demands for less features and smaller footprint, help systems, a thin client for web apps., the embedded market: cell phones, PDAs etc). Now, if not enough users are willing to support development with money, the funding may only come from the business area, but business don't invest with regard to users' needs, but with regard to ROI. BTW, another source of funding is governments, but in seven years, not a single email has arrived from that source ;-). There we are. -- Cheers Jorge.-

Nov. 29, 2006

The sound of silence

by Joonas Saarinen

Hello, It has been almost two months of silence on this list and I thought to ask how are you doing? :) Anything new about the "Campaign to help Dillo survive"? Etc.

Nov. 27, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Re: [Fwd: Dillo article precisions]

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi, On Wed, Oct 04, 2006 at 12:23:18PM -0600, Alan Carvalho de Assis wrote: > Hi Jorge, > I hope some company to sponsor Dillo soon. > > BTW, do you have some observation to be add in campaign's document? It has shaped very well! A few observations: * I'd put FLTK2 instead of FLTK FLTK1 is different and Dillo doesn't compile with it. * FLTK2 comes with text antialiasing and UTF8 A couple of features already working in dillo-fltk2! (this may be pointed up there) * For further information, and contact, please point them to my email address (jcid(a)dillo.org) > Do you think to contact the company which contacted you three years ago? Most probably yes. Although they're trying to "open source" their own platform, investing on a side technology is a good diversity safeguard they'll probably want to consider. -- Cheers Jorge.- PS: please don't CC' me. I do read dillo-dev!

Oct. 4, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Re: [Fwd: Dillo article precisions]

by Alan Carvalho de Assis

Hi Jorge, I hope some company to sponsor Dillo soon. BTW, do you have some observation to be add in campaign's document? Do you think to contact the company which contacted you three years ago? Cheers, Alan

Oct. 4, 2006

Re: [Fwd: Dillo article precisions]

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi Henry, On Tue, Oct 03, 2006 at 02:30:33PM -0700, Henry Kingman wrote: > Hi Jorge, > > I tried to update our article with some of the details you sent. > > Thanks, and good luck with the Dillo project! I hope you find funding. Thanks for the corrections. One important precision: the dillo project needs at least two core developers working on it fulltime. Not only me. If there's only one person working full time on it, it's not enough to keep the pace of evolving technologies. That's what I meant when writing: > > The situation is this: there're two core developers. We need at > >least to be both working on Dillo full time (ideally three devs.) > >otherwise the project would lag behind the moving target that > >Internet browsing is. I find this paragraph misleading: "Alternatively, Cid says he will release the FLTK2 port if he finds enough funding to be able to continue working fulltime on the port himeself. He said, "Given the current situation, the best option seems to be to remain closed until funding happens." and it's not true. Please make the correction. -- Cheers Jorge.- > > -Henry > > cc: Rick, executive editor > > -- > Henry Kingman, senior editor > LinuxDevices.com > Ziff Davis Internet > 775 625-4547 > > > > > > > >-------- Original Message -------- > >Subject: Dillo article precisions > >Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 09:40:28 -0400 > >From: Jorge Arellano Cid <jcid(a)dillo.org> > >To: Rick Lehrbaum <rick(a)linuxdevices.com> > >CC: Dillo mailing list <dillo-dev(a)lists.auriga.wearlab.de> > > > >Hi Rick, > > > > It's being a long time since my last article at linuxdevices, > >receive my greetings from Chile! > > > > With regard to the new article: > > > > http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4370323584.html > > > > It caught me by surprise. There was a thread in dillo-dev and > >some users suggested that campaign. I was commenting on gross > >factual mistakes in the wiki when it was announced that an > >article was live at linuxdevices. > > > > It's good to see our users' interest in keeping the project > >alive, so I'll comment the article here so you can correct and > >improve the article: > > > > > >>A project to create an ultra-lightweight web browser for use in > >>embedded devices and other resource-constrained hardware has > >>issued a plea for financial help. The Dillo Project says it needs > >>to find a corporate sponsor in order to add anti-aliased text, > >>CSS, Javascript, and internationalization/localization support. > > > > We've almost finished the port to FLTK2, and it already has > >anti-aliased text. (Dillo doesn't compile with FLTK1) > > > > FLTK2 uses UTF8 and provides antialiasing so it solves the > >problem of using GTK1 (this was one of the reasons for GTK1 to go > >GTK2). > > > > UTF8 also makes it easy to add i18n and l10n without breaking > >things inside the browser. > > > > I point this technical details because unofficial patches have > >been developed for antialiasing, i18n and l10n for GTK1. This is > >a good workaround but not a long term solution. > > > > > >> > >>(Click for larger screenshot of Dillo) > > > > Here you'll find a screenshot of dillo-fltk2: > > > > http://www.dillo.org/test/ph2.png > > > > (it shows antialiasing) > > > > > >> > >>Dillo is a very lightweight (about 350 KB) browser supporting a > >>subset of HTML, CGI, SSL, and cookies. > > > > And plugins. > > + Images (GIF, PNG and JPEG) > > > >> Dillo is not really > >>practical for browsing the modern Internet, due to missing > >>support for frames, CSS, Javascript, and other commonly used > >>standards and protocols. It also lacks support for anti-aliased > >>text, something even Linux desktop users have long taken for > >>granted, and appears to have only rudimentary HTML error handling > >>capabilities. > > > > The HTML error handling has improved a lot (the bug meter can > >atest that), but yes, error handling is not as advanced as with > >Firefox. > > > > Anyway, sometimes there're pages with a few hundred mistakes > >handled gracefully. ;-) > > > > > >>Nonetheless, Dillo is extremely fast and lightweight, using less > >>memory in some cases than popular text-based browsers such as > >>lynx. And, since it supports CGI, it could be useful as a > >>framework for simple device interfaces based on Web standards, > >>such as survey kiosks and other closed, "walled garden" > >>applications. > > > > BTW, the new Dillo with a statically linked FLTK2 is about > >820 Kilobytes. > > > >> > >>Additionally, Dillo is popular with web developers due to > >>excellent HTML error reporting. > > > > :-) > > > > > >> > >>Dillo is expected to gain support for anti-aliased text after its > >>development team completes a port to FLTK (fast light toolkit, > >>aka "fulltick"). > > > > [Already there, see above] > > > >> However, founder Jorge Arellano Cid appears > >>adamant that funding be located prior to release of his > >>nearly-complete FLTK port, according to a "save Dillo" campaign > >>page hosted here. > > > > True. > > > > The situation is this: there're two core developers. We need at > >least to be both working on Dillo full time (ideally three devs.) > >otherwise the project would lag behind the moving target that > >Internet browsing is. > > > > Sebastian (the other core developer) is employed fulltime in > >Germany so he has almost no time to Develop. I don't have funds > >to keep on working fulltime too, so if there're no funds the > >project will loose the main developers and their knowledge. > > > > With regard to releasing. That's what I've done for 6+ years > >with GTK1 and no funding happened ;-). > > > > If there were more interested developers in working with Dillo > >(lets say 6 serious and qualified people) I would consider > >releasing because the project could advance in that case. > > > > Believe it or not I asked in dillo-dev, and there was only one > >answer from a dev that could put 4 hours/week and that had no > >FLTK2 knowledge nor on Dillo internals. > > > > Given the current situation, the best option seems to remain > >closed until funding happens. > > > > > >> > >>Other ongoing Dillo development efforts reportedly include CSS > >>support (said to be "70 percent complete") and JavaScript > >>support, as well as additional internationalization (I18n) and > >>localization (l10n) features. > > > > I reported 70% on CSS. This is on the FLTK2 branch, not from > >external efforts. > > > > The interesting part is that we paved the way for all these in > >the newest branch, so now it's much easier to develop them over > >the new code base than with the old branch. > > > > A rough timeline estimation would be near 2 years to have the > >whole set: antialiasing, CSS, I18n, l10n, Frames, Tabs, SSL and > >good Javascript. > > > > We could make a release in 6 months and thenceforth go on > >incrementally adding features in any desired order (probably this > >would be up to the sponsors' needs). > > > > > >>Additional details about Dillo can be found on Dillo's official > >>funding presentations page. For additional background, be sure to > >>read Cid's 2002 introduction to the browser, here. > >> > >>The Dillo project previously sought funding in February of 2004, > >>and was successful in obtaining a one-time grant through the > >>Linux Fund. > > > > > > Thanks a lot for your time and commitment. > > > > > > > -- > Henry Kingman, senior editor > LinuxDevices.com > Ziff Davis Internet > 775 625-4547 >

Oct. 4, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Dillo article precisions

by R.L. Horn

On Tue, 3 Oct 2006, Jorge Arellano Cid wrote: > Believe it or not I asked in dillo-dev, and there was only one answer > from a dev that could put 4 hours/week and that had no FLTK2 knowledge > nor on Dillo internals. I'd be willing to put some time in on the project. No FLTK2 experience, but it's yet another wretched event-driven-interface widget thing (yawediwt), so how hard can it be?

Oct. 3, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Campaign to help Dillo survive

by Jorge Arellano Cid

On Tue, Oct 03, 2006 at 02:48:50PM +0200, Vincent Thomasset wrote: > On Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:36:30 -0300 > "Alan Carvalho de Assis" <acassis(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi all, > > Hi, > > > the news about Dillo funding was been posted at LinuxDevices. > > > > http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4370323584.html > > > > The article was wrote by LinuxDevices editor, I just send the > > campaign's link. > > > > I don't like the phrase: "Dillo is not really practical for browsing > > the modern Internet..." anyway I hope it don't taint the Dillo's > > image. > > > > Now we needs to send it to some companies. > > I thought you would have waited a bit longer to "release" the document. > I'm not sure it is 100% ready for prime time. Maybe we should look at > it once again before sending it to companies ? Yes, definitevely. > I also think Jorge should agree on the final version (if only to check > if everything is correct and inline with his pov). I sent my corrections to Rick (Editor of linuxdevices), let's look how the article shapes. > Anyway, i found the article to be rather honest overall, and even though > this particular phrase is a bit harsh, it is somewhat true. Yes, it's true. Currently Dillo is most useful at looking for information. (i.e. googling quickly). > > Let's hope this is gonna have some impact. :-) That's the good part of this. It's already going on and it may have some impact. FWIW, some years ago a very big cell phone company tried to hire me and Sebastian (IIRC) to develop the browser for their cellphone. Not Dillo, but a propietary one. Now that years have passed, and that they left the propietary browsing avenue, it may happen. Who knows? -- Cheers Jorge.-

Oct. 3, 2006

Dillo article precisions

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi Rick, It's being a long time since my last article at linuxdevices, receive my greetings from Chile! With regard to the new article: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4370323584.html It caught me by surprise. There was a thread in dillo-dev and some users suggested that campaign. I was commenting on gross factual mistakes in the wiki when it was announced that an article was live at linuxdevices. It's good to see our users' interest in keeping the project alive, so I'll comment the article here so you can correct and improve the article: > A project to create an ultra-lightweight web browser for use in > embedded devices and other resource-constrained hardware has > issued a plea for financial help. The Dillo Project says it needs > to find a corporate sponsor in order to add anti-aliased text, > CSS, Javascript, and internationalization/localization support. We've almost finished the port to FLTK2, and it already has anti-aliased text. (Dillo doesn't compile with FLTK1) FLTK2 uses UTF8 and provides antialiasing so it solves the problem of using GTK1 (this was one of the reasons for GTK1 to go GTK2). UTF8 also makes it easy to add i18n and l10n without breaking things inside the browser. I point this technical details because unofficial patches have been developed for antialiasing, i18n and l10n for GTK1. This is a good workaround but not a long term solution. > > (Click for larger screenshot of Dillo) Here you'll find a screenshot of dillo-fltk2: http://www.dillo.org/test/ph2.png (it shows antialiasing) > > Dillo is a very lightweight (about 350 KB) browser supporting a > subset of HTML, CGI, SSL, and cookies. And plugins. + Images (GIF, PNG and JPEG) > Dillo is not really > practical for browsing the modern Internet, due to missing > support for frames, CSS, Javascript, and other commonly used > standards and protocols. It also lacks support for anti-aliased > text, something even Linux desktop users have long taken for > granted, and appears to have only rudimentary HTML error handling > capabilities. The HTML error handling has improved a lot (the bug meter can atest that), but yes, error handling is not as advanced as with Firefox. Anyway, sometimes there're pages with a few hundred mistakes handled gracefully. ;-) > Nonetheless, Dillo is extremely fast and lightweight, using less > memory in some cases than popular text-based browsers such as > lynx. And, since it supports CGI, it could be useful as a > framework for simple device interfaces based on Web standards, > such as survey kiosks and other closed, "walled garden" > applications. BTW, the new Dillo with a statically linked FLTK2 is about 820 Kilobytes. > > Additionally, Dillo is popular with web developers due to > excellent HTML error reporting. :-) > > Dillo is expected to gain support for anti-aliased text after its > development team completes a port to FLTK (fast light toolkit, > aka "fulltick"). [Already there, see above] > However, founder Jorge Arellano Cid appears > adamant that funding be located prior to release of his > nearly-complete FLTK port, according to a "save Dillo" campaign > page hosted here. True. The situation is this: there're two core developers. We need at least to be both working on Dillo full time (ideally three devs.) otherwise the project would lag behind the moving target that Internet browsing is. Sebastian (the other core developer) is employed fulltime in Germany so he has almost no time to Develop. I don't have funds to keep on working fulltime too, so if there're no funds the project will loose the main developers and their knowledge. With regard to releasing. That's what I've done for 6+ years with GTK1 and no funding happened ;-). If there were more interested developers in working with Dillo (lets say 6 serious and qualified people) I would consider releasing because the project could advance in that case. Believe it or not I asked in dillo-dev, and there was only one answer from a dev that could put 4 hours/week and that had no FLTK2 knowledge nor on Dillo internals. Given the current situation, the best option seems to remain closed until funding happens. > > Other ongoing Dillo development efforts reportedly include CSS > support (said to be "70 percent complete") and JavaScript > support, as well as additional internationalization (I18n) and > localization (l10n) features. I reported 70% on CSS. This is on the FLTK2 branch, not from external efforts. The interesting part is that we paved the way for all these in the newest branch, so now it's much easier to develop them over the new code base than with the old branch. A rough timeline estimation would be near 2 years to have the whole set: antialiasing, CSS, I18n, l10n, Frames, Tabs, SSL and good Javascript. We could make a release in 6 months and thenceforth go on incrementally adding features in any desired order (probably this would be up to the sponsors' needs). > Additional details about Dillo can be found on Dillo's official > funding presentations page. For additional background, be sure to > read Cid's 2002 introduction to the browser, here. > > The Dillo project previously sought funding in February of 2004, > and was successful in obtaining a one-time grant through the > Linux Fund. Thanks a lot for your time and commitment. -- Cheers Jorge.-

Oct. 3, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Campaign to help Dillo survive

by Vincent Thomasset

On Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:36:30 -0300 "Alan Carvalho de Assis" <acassis(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi all, Hi, > the news about Dillo funding was been posted at LinuxDevices. > > http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4370323584.html > > The article was wrote by LinuxDevices editor, I just send the > campaign's link. > > I don't like the phrase: "Dillo is not really practical for browsing > the modern Internet..." anyway I hope it don't taint the Dillo's > image. > > Now we needs to send it to some companies. I thought you would have waited a bit longer to "release" the document. I'm not sure it is 100% ready for prime time. Maybe we should look at it once again before sending it to companies ? I also think Jorge should agree on the final version (if only to check if everything is correct and inline with his pov). Anyway, i found the article to be rather honest overall, and even though this particular phrase is a bit harsh, it is somewhat true. Let's hope this is gonna have some impact. :-) Cheers, Vincent

Oct. 3, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Campaign to help Dillo survive

by Alan Carvalho de Assis

Hi all, the news about Dillo funding was been posted at LinuxDevices. http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4370323584.html The article was wrote by LinuxDevices editor, I just send the campaign's link. I don't like the phrase: "Dillo is not really practical for browsing the modern Internet..." anyway I hope it don't taint the Dillo's image. Now we needs to send it to some companies. Cheers, Alan On 10/2/06, Vincent Thomasset <vincent.thomasset(a)skynet.be> wrote: > On Mon, 2 Oct 2006 10:00:46 -0300 > "Alan Carvalho de Assis" <acassis(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi all, > > Hi Allan, > > > the campaign's document is very good. Very informative. > > Taking shape indeed. :) > > I did some more modifs and would like to propose 2 things. > > (1) to remove the "Dillo is agonizing" part (too dramatic) by splitting > it, moving the first sentence in the "status" part and the rest of the > paragraph in the "why help dillo ?" part. > > (2) and contrary to my previous opinion that it could be useful to add > what is pending and coming, ie the direction(s) of development, because > these question is to be asked anyway. Hope the document does not get > too heavy though... > > BTW, i can do the first one but the second one is beyond my scope. ;) > > Cheers, > Vincent > > _______________________________________________ > Dillo-dev mailing list > Dillo-dev(a)dillo.org > http://lists.auriga.wearlab.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dillo-dev > -- ------------------------------------------------------------ | Alan Carvalho de Assis | ------------------------------------------------------------ -- Não importa o que os outros irão pensar, A cura para a infelicidade é a felicidade

Oct. 3, 2006

[jcid@dillo.org: Re: [Dillo-dev] Campaign to help Dillo survive]

by Jorge Arellano Cid

-- Cheers Jorge.-

Oct. 2, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Dillo FLTK CVS

by Jorge Arellano Cid

Hi there, I liked this email because it reminded me of a set of things, that I'd like to share. On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 05:18:12PM -0600, Alan Carvalho de Assis wrote: > Hi Michal, > > On 9/29/06, Michal Nowak <xnowak01(a)stud.fit.vutbr.cz> wrote: > >Hi Alan, > > > >well I am not sure how you could do it i(=desktop@floppy) but I think > >Dillo will be quite large with staticaly linked with fltk2. > > > Do you know how large is it? > > >May I ask you, how many space have you got on the floppy? Or you mean > >"the floppy" (1.4 MiB)? It would be great proof of concept... > > Well, I am formatting it at 1.74 MB, and I will use compressed fs > (squashfs). > I think it will get ~ 3MB. > > Kernel: ~ 600KB (I am using kernel-tiny patch) > Kdrive: ~ 600KB (I am using uClibc) > Dillo-fltk: < 1.8 MB jcid@infinity:~/C/Dillo/proto/dillo-f15/src$ v dillo-fltk -rwxr-xr-x 1 jcid users 826768 Oct 2 12:33 dillo-fltk* This is 820KB. It fits! :-) (It has a statically linked FLTK2) > > >The troubles with funds... it's quite longstanding problem. Dillo neads > >fulltime dev or two. There are companies which has Dillo build in their > >products and sold them, well, that's OK, but thay give nothing back... > >just sitting and waiting for Jorge. Comunity of Dillo is rather small, > >people from developed countrie have fast computers -> lack of hunger for > >such think Dillo is. Probably nobody will pay for releasing "another > >browser", coz hey have ff, opera, konq etc. > > Dillo will be the best option for cheap linux cell phones. Then when > these cell phone companies realise it is a best option it will invest. > To do it we need emphasize Dillo qualities: the faster browser ever, > the smallest footprint, etc. A long time ago I thought that if I was able to build a small and efficient browser like Dillo I could _demonstrate_ my point that internet access can be made much cheaper, and that the Hardware, Software and Bandwidth requirements were inflated to exploit the market in a more profitable point. I was right! I also thought that once this was demonstrated, it was going to be easy to get support from the government, or technology funds, or digital divide funds. But, I was wrong here, and I learnt it the hard way. The problem was not the lack of the technology! The problem was the huge economical interests, corruption and greed. Those participating in this thread, please read this interview I gave in 2002. It explains the underlying topics very well: http://www.dillo.org/interview.html > >But you can help Dillo with submitting code, if ou want to :). > > Doing a small linux distro I will help to demonstre as powerful dillo > is. And it will demonstre too the small dillo footprint. This is demonstrated already (of course it would make a beautiful showcase). The bottom line is: What we need to find is a source of funds that's above the second barrier, stated above. -- Cheers Jorge.-

Oct. 2, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Campaign to help Dillo survive

by Vincent Thomasset

On Mon, 2 Oct 2006 10:00:46 -0300 "Alan Carvalho de Assis" <acassis(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi all, Hi Allan, > the campaign's document is very good. Very informative. Taking shape indeed. :) I did some more modifs and would like to propose 2 things. (1) to remove the "Dillo is agonizing" part (too dramatic) by splitting it, moving the first sentence in the "status" part and the rest of the paragraph in the "why help dillo ?" part. (2) and contrary to my previous opinion that it could be useful to add what is pending and coming, ie the direction(s) of development, because these question is to be asked anyway. Hope the document does not get too heavy though... BTW, i can do the first one but the second one is beyond my scope. ;) Cheers, Vincent

Oct. 2, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Campaign to help Dillo survive

by Alan Carvalho de Assis

Hi all, the campaign's document is very good. Very informative. Thanks for all!!! Alan

Oct. 2, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Campaign to help Dillo survive

by Alan Carvalho de Assis

Hi Vincent, On 10/1/06, Vincent Thomasset <vincent.thomasset(a)skynet.be> wrote: > Hi, > > I did some more modifications, hope it's alright. Could anybody check to > see if everything is correct ? > The document is becoming very good! > Now on to some thoughts > > I think the document would gain to simply be an open letter type of > document, ie wipe out every technical aspect from it (except from the > obvious description of dillo, as well as the goals and current state of > the project) and just explain the situation. The document could simply > point to the website for further infos on the technical side so as to > keep the document as short and on focus as possible. > Vincent, I think it need to be an open letter too. There is no so much technical terms. Everybody can understand it. Anyway we need to detach dillo qualities. I think it is becoming a very interesting open letter to specialized embedded system media. > As a side note, i also think this type of effort would get more > reaction/attention if the final document would be posted on dillo's > homepage. Sure, it can be posted at dillo.org if dillo author to desire. My other idea is send it to specialized media ie linuxdevices.com and slashdot.com, but to us to do it we need Jorge's agreement. > Cheers, Thank you very much, > Vincent > Alan

Oct. 1, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Campaign to help Dillo survive

by Vincent Thomasset

Hi, I did some more modifications, hope it's alright. Could anybody check to see if everything is correct ? Now on to some thoughts I think the document would gain to simply be an open letter type of document, ie wipe out every technical aspect from it (except from the obvious description of dillo, as well as the goals and current state of the project) and just explain the situation. The document could simply point to the website for further infos on the technical side so as to keep the document as short and on focus as possible. As a side note, i also think this type of effort would get more reaction/attention if the final document would be posted on dillo's homepage. Cheers, Vincent

Oct. 1, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Campaign to help Dillo survive

by Alan Carvalho de Assis

Hi Joonas, On 9/30/06, Joonas Saarinen <jza(a)saunalahti.fi> wrote: > This is an interesting idea! I made some typo fixes and clarifications > to the page myself too. I see your fixes and clarifications, very nice!!! I hope more people collaborate with this idea. > I also hope for the document to become powerful enough to wake interest > in the embedded/mobile industry. Others, feel free to contribute too. > Yes, it will be... If others just give a little contribution it will become powerful soon. Best regards, Alan

Sept. 30, 2006

Re: [Dillo-dev] Campaign to help Dillo survive

by Joonas Saarinen

Alan Carvalho de Assis wrote: > Hi all, > I am writing a document to convince some company to help Dillo > project. This is an interesting idea! I made some typo fixes and clarifications to the page myself too. I also hope for the document to become powerful enough to wake interest in the embedded/mobile industry. Others, feel free to contribute too.

Sept. 30, 2006