experiment feedback
Hi Everyone. I think there may be people on this list from Chile, I hope this message finds you all safe and your situation stable. Sorry in advance if this email is too long. I am attracted to Dillo because of it's relatively small code base, the sloccount command gives me about 50K. Webkit is almost 2 million and it's not even a full browser, just an engine. I have a insane idea. I would like to create command line tools/browser hybrids. I would like to strip out all networking ability and add in full file system access, perhaps through special <read-io> <write-io> tags to a Dillo fork. The problem I would like to solve is a way to create a very simple rapid application desktop environment for chemists to use. GTK, QT, WxWidgets etc all take time to learn but many people can throw some HTML together. I was thinking that I could make small dillo-fied applications that the scientists could then alter to suit there specific needs. All access would be through local files. My Son was diagnosed with Autism a couple of years ago, he is getting much better now but we have taken a huge financial hit( >40K) I expect to be back on track by the fall, we are already pulling out of it. My project would be open source but for profit, I do/will have some capital to put towards my project. I am not sure what would be required to complete the CSS support and to add Javascript. I am not sure if the Dillo community wants these things but my networked crippled version could be a testing ground for features that would not necessarily have to go back into Dillo. If anyone wanted to help, what would be a suitable donation to achieve these goals be? Although I am learning I still suck at C/C++, despite this I can also contribute coding time if someone could spare a bit of time mentoring? Am I totally nuts? Could something like this be done? Thanks for reading-Patrick
My project would be open source but for profit
My experience, having had an open source project for nearly a decade, is that it's very hard to make money with open source. Open source software is free software, and that means people aren't paying for it, and, annoyingly enough, people are too lazy to RTFM and expect you to answer their email with their support concern or implement whatever pet feature they want "for fun and for free". A lot of web boards out there are filled with free software users with a pretty strong "entitlement mentality"; people who don't contribute to open source but think open source developers should give them a program with the features they want without being paid a cent for their hard work. I have blogged about this quite a bit: http://maradns.blogspot.com/search/label/freetards The way I handle people like that is by making it crystal clear I do not provide unpaid email support; if you want private email support, have your credit card ready. Some people ignore all of the warnings on the web page with my email address so I have a simple script which sends people like that a canned reply asking for money and telling them I will forward any further email they send me to a public mailing list unless they have already paid me. When people ask for features, I handle them in email by giving them the canned reply; if they request features on the mailing list, I ask them how much they are willing to pay for said feature, or give them the "I'm married and don't have time to implement more features for free" spiel. If you know of a way I can keep my program open source and make money on it, I am all ears. I have made a little money implementing features people want, but not nearly enough to pay the rent. It's mainly a way of putting up a boundary with users who want me to go broke programming for them for the rest of my life without me ever getting paid for my work. - Sam
Hi Sam I write terrible verbose emails, I did not want to lower the signal-to-noise on the list hopefully this is okay.... My business model follows something like this. I would like to offer scientists tools to control their instruments, plot their data and analyze it. There are already enough open source tools to put something together but it would have to be a pre-fabricated one size fits all solution because these people don't have time to learn to program in C/C++. I was hoping to use HTML as a way to allow the scientists to customize things for themselves. Anyone can pick up HTML in a few days or less, especially with a template. I don't think there is a much of a market helping scientists with HTML. However in order to control their instruments they will need the "command set" to communicate with it. I have lots of expensive proprietary software and instruments too . By eavesdropping on the communication I can recreate the "command sets". It is these commands that are worth paying someone to help with. The software applications this project is trying to replace cost between $5k to 40K. Charging let's say $80-100 an hour would not be unreasonable to come up with a customized solution that eliminates the proprietary software and creates only what the customer needs without bloat. Does this seem logical? Thanks very much for your feedback-Patrick
Hi, On Sat, Mar 06, 2010 at 08:27:31PM -0500, Patrick wrote:
Hi Everyone.
I think there may be people on this list from Chile, I hope this message finds you all safe and your situation stable.
Sorry in advance if this email is too long.
I am attracted to Dillo because of it's relatively small code base, the sloccount command gives me about 50K. Webkit is almost 2 million and it's not even a full browser, just an engine.
I have a insane idea. I would like to create command line tools/browser hybrids. I would like to strip out all networking ability and add in full file system access, perhaps through special <read-io> <write-io> tags to a Dillo fork. The problem I would like to solve is a way to create a very simple rapid application desktop environment for chemists to use. GTK, QT, WxWidgets etc all take time to learn but many people can throw some HTML together. I was thinking that I could make small dillo-fied applications that the scientists could then alter to suit there specific needs. All access would be through local files.
40K) I expect to be back on track by the fall, we are already
My Son was diagnosed with Autism a couple of years ago, he is getting much better now but we have taken a huge financial hit( pulling out of it. My project would be open source but for profit, I do/will have some capital to put towards my project. I am not sure what would be required to complete the CSS support and to add Javascript. I am not sure if the Dillo community wants these things but my networked crippled version could be a testing ground for features that would not necessarily have to go back into Dillo. If anyone wanted to help, what would be a suitable donation to achieve these goals be? Although I am learning I still suck at C/C++, despite this I can also contribute coding time if someone could spare a bit of time mentoring?
Am I totally nuts? Could something like this be done?
Regarding the commercial aspect of the idea I can only say that you need to think at least twice as much about how to actually make money from your idea as you need about the technical details. This will be the hard part... Regarding the technical questions: * For complete CSS 2.1 support, so that dillo would e.g. pass the ACID test I would estimate about 1.5 staff years for a pretty experienced programmer. * For JavaScript support I don't know enough about the details to make an estimation. If you need full CSS support and JavaScript go with an existing compliant solution like webkit. Then if your code works you could come back and check how dillo could be enhanced so it works with dillo too. Do one thing after the other. Cheers, Johannes
Hi Johannes Thanks very much for your feedback. I am sure that my business plan will need tweaking but I am also really pretty confident about it. I have spoken with many people working in labs about it and they are really excited about open source. At the end of the day my own business could save 10K a year if I just did not have to buy software and if my project failed to make money but helped those researching diseases and such, that really would not be a loss. " estimate about 1.5 staff years for a pretty experienced programmer" Whoa! I had no idea there was that much work left to me done with CSS. Would this much code change Dillo fundamentally? Are there many features that would not be required most of the time, are there many obscure features. I guess it's just a philosophical issue but I am not attracted to large-large projects, small is beautiful. 50K lines of code will take me a long time to understand but it is within the realm of possibilities. I don't think anyone understands all of webkit Thanks again-Patrick
Hi Patrick, On Mon, Mar 08, 2010 at 02:17:57PM -0500, Patrick wrote:
Hi Johannes
Thanks very much for your feedback. I am sure that my business plan will need tweaking but I am also really pretty confident about it. I have spoken with many people working in labs about it and they are really excited about open source. At the end of the day my own business could save 10K a year if I just did not have to buy software and if my project failed to make money but helped those researching diseases and such, that really would not be a loss.
It's a good start if you already have a customer.
" estimate about 1.5 staff years for a pretty experienced programmer"
Whoa! I had no idea there was that much work left to me done with CSS. Would this much code change Dillo fundamentally? Are there many features that would not be required most of the time, are there many obscure features.
Well, it depends on what you call obscure... There is the whole absolute positioning thing, then there is floats, background images and a lot of tiny details. Just browse through the CSS 2.1 spec at http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/
I guess it's just a philosophical issue but I am not attracted to large-large projects, small is beautiful. 50K lines of code will take me a long time to understand but it is within the realm of possibilities. I don't think anyone understands all of webkit
No need to explain this to me. I use and work on dillo for similar reasons :-) My point was just that * completing full CSS 2.1 support * adding JavaScript * developing your own framework based on that are all very ambitious projects on their own. Cheers, Johannes
Thanks again Johannes Again I sorry if I am cluttering this list with my own issues.... Here is a bit more detail if interested. Like most of you I can code an hour or two in the evenings but I am pretty new to C/C++ and will be much slower then the rest of you. I starting working on this project four years ago but this time has been occupied by trying to plan out the project. I feel like I am so close to something amazing but I also feel that I am trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and I am running around in circles. I would like to be able to control and process data from about 100 different models of instruments. I am only working 3 hours a day, while my Autistic Son is in nursery school and looking after him full time otherwise. However I am still able to move about 10-15K worth of instrumentation through my basement per month. I have access to instruments and software, market myself well and have an interest in open source. I feel like I am in a great place to make a difference but I have so far failed to do so. I am afraid to code an entire App. Just the configuration alone would be difficult with so many instruments. I am thinking it might be better to assemble things on a case by case basis. All of these labs have such different needs and styles too, if there was a way they could also write part of the application, that would be best. I know people make hooks in their applications for embedding languages like Lua and Python but these languages will take too long for these busy people to learn, that's why I am looking at an HTML solution. So, what I can offer is 1-2 hours per day of less then amazing C/C++ or I can contribute financially or both. On the financial note, almost all the profit I am making at the moment is back out the door in the form of Autism therapy bills and debt repayment from a difficult couple of years. However my Son is getting better and when I can work a normal work day I should be able to contribute funds, perhaps $100-$300 a month. This is however not enough to employ a full time programmer and I can't fund years of CSS development it would have to be 2/3rds geared towards my project. Not sure if this is a good match for the project? Thanks for reading my long-long email-patrick
* completing full CSS 2.1 support * adding JavaScript * developing your own framework based on that
are all very ambitious projects on their own.
Cheers, Johannes
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participants (3)
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Johannes.Hofmann＠gmx.de -
spell_gooder_now＠spellingbeewinnars.org -
strenholme.usenet＠gmail.com