Hi Johan! It took a long time to analyze the three patches, but finally here we are: [I'm not quoting the previous email bacause it got too big and can be easily found at the web archives] The patches were: 1.- Made main document window grab focus on startup and after open url. Commited! In the meanwhile, Owen taylor answered my post to GTK-list and it become clear that the "Nirvana"-widget issue is solved in GTK2. Thanks a lot for your comments on this. You may find interesting to read the answer: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-list/2003-June/msg00307.html 2.- Accelerator keys. Huh! These are to be picked very carefully! It took me a lot of work to figure simple mnemonic shortcuts that integrate well with the UI model. The chosen ones are: Shortcut Mnemonic ------------------------------------------------------------ Ctrl-U "Ctrl-URL" (to edit the URL) Ctrl-H "Ctrl-Hide" (Hide/show controls) Ctrl-S "Ctrl-Search" (search the web) Ctrl-R "Ctrl-Reload" (reload current page) ------------------------------------------------------------ (integrating with the existent) Ctrl-L "Ctrl-Location" (enters a new URL) Ctrl-F "Ctrl-Find" (find text) Ctrl-Q "ctrl-Quit" (quit window) (Note: Ctrl-S is not implemented yet) These should provide good defaults as Havoc suggests. Please give them a test drive to get the feel. Ah, while thinking of it, I thought it'd be good to add the ESC key as a way to switch from the location box into the main window, it can be easily done with the key handler you wrote. 3.- Search feature Uncommited yet, the functionality is perfect. Just some minor details in the UI: A small icon to the right of the location box (hideable as the othe icons), with Ctrl-S as shortcut, that pops up a dialog (just as find text and open url). The icon's tooltip can be "Search the Internet", "Search the Web", or something better :-) The final touches: * While working on the location bar shortcuts, I thought it'd be good to add the ESC key as a way to switch from the location box into the main window, it can be easily done with the key handler you wrote. * It'd be also good to add middle-click over the clear-url button, as a way to "paste-push" an URLs. Instead of the the current three step sequence: - Press clear-url - Paste URL - Press enter I carefully considered your previous email and this model should take good care of the several points we talked about. Half of the work is on CVS now, and the above mentioned details are pending. Please send me a new patch with the modifications to fast-track-commit-it-in! Best Jorge.-
Hi Jorge!
2.- Accelerator keys.
Huh! These are to be picked very carefully! It took me a lot of work to figure simple mnemonic shortcuts that integrate well with the UI model.
The chosen ones are:
Shortcut Mnemonic ------------------------------------------------------------ Ctrl-U "Ctrl-URL" (to edit the URL) Ctrl-H "Ctrl-Hide" (Hide/show controls) Ctrl-S "Ctrl-Search" (search the web) Ctrl-R "Ctrl-Reload" (reload current page) ------------------------------------------------------------ (integrating with the existent) Ctrl-L "Ctrl-Location" (enters a new URL) Ctrl-F "Ctrl-Find" (find text) Ctrl-Q "ctrl-Quit" (quit window)
(Note: Ctrl-S is not implemented yet)
These should provide good defaults as Havoc suggests. Please give them a test drive to get the feel. Some issues noted (which you may already have considered):
Ctrl-U "Ctrl-URL" (to edit the URL) - Conflicts with gtk text entry's "Delete line" shortcut. - Could perhaps be considered a feature, since one ctrl-u gets you to the location bar and another clears it? - Has the irritating consequence that you cannot use it while in a html text entry widged. - May cause undesired "url lossage" ;-) when already in the location entry. Ctrl-H "Ctrl-Hide" (Hide/show controls) - Conflicts with the gtk text entry's "Delete Backward Character (Backspace)" - Hence cannot be used while in html text entry forms or location entry. - F11 seems to be the standard keybinding for full screen. Ctrl-S "Ctrl-Search" (search the web) - Frank's note that this is a standard shortcut for "Save Page", implies that perhaps Ctrl-S isn't such a good choice, and an alternative should be thought out. - ...but a search bar doesn't solve the problem, since it should also be accessible through a shortcut. - My original proposal "s <keywords>" is still an option... General issues concerning the Locationbar/dialog - Ctrl-U doesn't select the url (just focuses), hence another keypress is required in order to enter a new url (same goes for Ctrl-L - open location dialog). - Perhaps both the location dialog and location entry, should select all text on Ctrl-L and Ctrl-U respectively? - Considering the conflicts noted above, isn't Ctrl-L for focusing (and perhaps selecting the contents of) the location bar and Ctrl-Shift-L for opening location dialog a better and more consistent solution?
Ah, while thinking of it, I thought it'd be good to add the ESC key as a way to switch from the location box into the main window, it can be easily done with the key handler you wrote. Isn't this a (unneccessary) violation of Havoc's guidelines, since a single tab press focuses the document window? (I.e. it would be a duplication.) (Just a note: an ESC press in the location box in mozilla and opera selects the text and clears the text, respectively)
3.- Search feature
Uncommited yet, the functionality is perfect. Just some minor details in the UI:
A small icon to the right of the location box (hideable as the othe icons), with Ctrl-S as shortcut, that pops up a dialog (just as find text and open url). Shall I keep the "s <keywords>" interface as well, or just go with the search box. The overhead is minimal, and people disliking dialogs would be pleased.
Is there someone out there who could add a nice magnifying glass icon (or whatever is preferred), to pixmap.h?
The icon's tooltip can be "Search the Internet", "Search the Web", or something better :-) Since the search engine to us is an option(search_url), perhaps another preference is desired, e.g. a search_name option, and then setting the tooltip to "Search using <search_name>". Alternatively, the server name could be extracted from search_url, but this may not always work as desired.
* It'd be also good to add middle-click over the clear-url button, as a way to "paste-push" an URLs. Instead of the the current three step sequence:
- Press clear-url - Paste URL - Press enter A really great idea! But, just to be a smart ass ;-), doesn't this break the cognitive model behind dillo's interface in the same way as did the "s <keywords>" interface...
I carefully considered your previous email and this model should take good care of the several points we talked about. Half of the work is on CVS now, and the above mentioned details are pending. Please send me a new patch with the modifications to fast-track-commit-it-in! As noted above, you may already have considered the issues noted. So if you've already made up your mind, I'll go ahead and implement the remaining parts as soon as possible. Is there planned release date for 0.8.0?
Best regards, Johan Hovold
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003, Johan Hovold wrote:
Hi Jorge!
2.- Accelerator keys.
Huh! These are to be picked very carefully! It took me a lot of work to figure simple mnemonic shortcuts that integrate well with the UI model.
The chosen ones are:
Shortcut Mnemonic ------------------------------------------------------------ Ctrl-U "Ctrl-URL" (to edit the URL) Ctrl-H "Ctrl-Hide" (Hide/show controls) Ctrl-S "Ctrl-Search" (search the web) Ctrl-R "Ctrl-Reload" (reload current page) ------------------------------------------------------------ (integrating with the existent) Ctrl-L "Ctrl-Location" (enters a new URL) Ctrl-F "Ctrl-Find" (find text) Ctrl-Q "ctrl-Quit" (quit window)
(Note: Ctrl-S is not implemented yet)
These should provide good defaults as Havoc suggests. Please give them a test drive to get the feel. Some issues noted (which you may already have considered):
Ctrl-U "Ctrl-URL" (to edit the URL) - Conflicts with gtk text entry's "Delete line" shortcut. - Could perhaps be considered a feature, since one ctrl-u gets you to the location bar and another clears it? - Has the irritating consequence that you cannot use it while in a html text entry widged. - May cause undesired "url lossage" ;-) when already in the location entry.
Ctrl-H "Ctrl-Hide" (Hide/show controls) - Conflicts with the gtk text entry's "Delete Backward Character (Backspace)" - Hence cannot be used while in html text entry forms or location entry. - F11 seems to be the standard keybinding for full screen.
Ctrl-S "Ctrl-Search" (search the web) - Frank's note that this is a standard shortcut for "Save Page", implies that perhaps Ctrl-S isn't such a good choice, and an alternative should be thought out. - ...but a search bar doesn't solve the problem, since it should also be accessible through a shortcut. - My original proposal "s <keywords>" is still an option...
General issues concerning the Locationbar/dialog - Ctrl-U doesn't select the url (just focuses), hence another keypress is required in order to enter a new url (same goes for Ctrl-L - open location dialog). - Perhaps both the location dialog and location entry, should select all text on Ctrl-L and Ctrl-U respectively? - Considering the conflicts noted above, isn't Ctrl-L for focusing (and perhaps selecting the contents of) the location bar and Ctrl-Shift-L for opening location dialog a better and more consistent solution?
Ah, while thinking of it, I thought it'd be good to add the ESC key as a way to switch from the location box into the main window, it can be easily done with the key handler you wrote. Isn't this a (unneccessary) violation of Havoc's guidelines, since a single tab press focuses the document window? (I.e. it would be a duplication.) (Just a note: an ESC press in the location box in mozilla and opera selects the text and clears the text, respectively)
3.- Search feature
Uncommited yet, the functionality is perfect. Just some minor details in the UI:
A small icon to the right of the location box (hideable as the othe icons), with Ctrl-S as shortcut, that pops up a dialog (just as find text and open url). Shall I keep the "s <keywords>" interface as well, or just go with the search box. The overhead is minimal, and people disliking dialogs would be pleased.
Is there someone out there who could add a nice magnifying glass icon (or whatever is preferred), to pixmap.h?
The icon's tooltip can be "Search the Internet", "Search the Web", or something better :-) Since the search engine to us is an option(search_url), perhaps another preference is desired, e.g. a search_name option, and then setting the tooltip to "Search using <search_name>". Alternatively, the server name could be extracted from search_url, but this may not always work as desired.
* It'd be also good to add middle-click over the clear-url button, as a way to "paste-push" an URLs. Instead of the the current three step sequence:
- Press clear-url - Paste URL - Press enter A really great idea! But, just to be a smart ass ;-), doesn't this break the cognitive model behind dillo's interface in the same way as did the "s <keywords>" interface...
I carefully considered your previous email and this model should take good care of the several points we talked about. Half of the work is on CVS now, and the above mentioned details are pending. Please send me a new patch with the modifications to fast-track-commit-it-in! As noted above, you may already have considered the issues noted. So if you've already made up your mind, I'll go ahead and implement the remaining parts as soon as possible.
Thanks. Attached goes a pixmap. As for the UI comments. It is not a black or white decision, it has many shades/tradeoffs. What I try to do is to chose the ones that better fit in the UI model as a whole. Ctrl-S is very interesting: it could be used for "Search" and "Save". As "Search" is much more used than save, I decided to let it have it (featuring a one-step cognitive association, as the other shortcuts). The other interesting option is to use Ctrl-W for "Web search" and Ctrl-S for save, but it introduces one two-step association (the required action is to search (ctrl-S), but that's not the shortcut, so a second association is needed). For instance: Where: the Web -> Ctrl-W, but this time it requires two-steps and breaks the cognitive model by introducing a non compliant association. The price to pay is that the unconsciously assimilated model now has an inconsistency, and the user certainly needs to update his mental model of it in order to use it. Once the new model is accomodated, all the other key bindings will most probably introduce a hesitation (depending on how the user made the accomodation), and the "perceived easiness" as a whole is compromised. An interesting related phenomena is that expert users already come with a bunch of unrelated shortcuts "hardcoded" in their brains, depending on the apps. they are used to. In that case, it is easier for them to try to make the new app. behave as they've come to expect, rather than to try to understand it, and assimilate its UI. I understand this fact, an so I think that providing a way to override _some_ shortcuts (as the Ctrl+<key> in dillo) may be a good thing to have (at the price of a bit of cluttering in dillorc). Now, providing a way to override almost every keybinding in dillo, and ways to accomodate for several different ways or styles of UI, is absolutely not a goal of this project (which is much more closer to what Havoc suggests).
Is there planned release date for 0.8.0?
Maybe in a month or two. We have to integrate a lot of code yet and also stabilze the dpi[pd]. I'll write a bit more about it in another email. Cheers Jorge.-
participants (3)
-
Johan Hovold -
Jorge Arellano Cid -
Jorge Arellano Cid